I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN!!!

[The Future]

Exactly.  Energy return vs energy employed is scientifically valid, consistent and not subject to the whims of financial machinations.  By the way, few have dared calculate the energy return on ANY form of oil extraction yet they apply such rigourous calculations to the likes of ethanol to even include the energy require to smelt the steel to make the tractor etc.  If one did run the numbers on oil, I am sure many would be surprised by a how low (or maybe even negative) the numbers would be.  Incidentally, there are some who say their studies indicate the oil consumption required to manufacture/commission/decommision an entire nuclear plant actually results in a greater Carbon output than an equivalent traditional power plant will emit over its entire life.  So much for carbon neutral.

By alas, it is coming to light that man made climate change may actually be one of he biggest frauds ever.  Check out french "video climat" movie on google video search.

[Publius]

How would you measure the ROI of an energy project? 

I think in our current environment most people measure these kinds of projects as ROI ( R$eturn On I$nvestment ); Whereas a better
measure in the future may be ROE ( Return On Energy ) ; especially if there are no $ to invest anyways. So basically the energy expended on a project should
be a small amount compared to the energy that you receive from the project. This is usually expressed in the form of a fraction. energy in / energy out . smaller the number the better.



Think of it this way. How much does an oil company expend on an easy to extract Saudi field vs. How much do they expend on a Brazilian subsalt 40,000 foot deep offshore well?

Most people look at dollars, but more and more looking at ROEI, Return On Energy Invested too. Take a PV solar panel. How much energy does it take to make it. This includes mining the resources and shipping to the installation point. ALL of it. Now how long to pay that back. I has been argued that it won't pay it back over it's whole life, and some say 20 years. While I agree in principal with this idea, I currently take the dollars and peace of mind/independence factor into consideration for a personal project. On the ROEI, my philosophy is so what, the energy is going to be spent one way or another, and building a PV panel, just puts it into the energy bank. Now instead of just burning up the energy driving to Nashville from Savannah, I must slowly extract it to keep my batteries charged. When energy is so expensive that the common person will not be able to afford it, then that panel will be a luxury.

[The Future]

There have been at least a few who have debunked the "it takes more energy to create the PV" myth.  But the real questions is, why is it not a common discussion as to how much energy it takes to deliver oil to your car.  How much fuel does am oil rig expend? a supertanker across the atlantic?

As an aside, it has been said that food has a very negative ER - an 80 calorie salad takes some 60,000 calories to grow, harvest, package and deliver.  In the end, unsustainable practises will end themselves - because their unsustainble.

[offdalip]

When energy is so expensive that the common person will not be able to afford it, then that panel will be a luxury

that panel will be priceless;

never been in a post hurricane scenario with or w/o a generator? Eventually the fuel will run out. Then you either have a solar PV bank with batteries
or else you have no electricity until they decide to hook you up weeks later.... if they are even able to

and, either genny or PV, you'll still have to be ultra efficient on your energy use no matter what. these things aren't applicable to using the electric range and AC and clothes dryer at the same time.
nor hardly any at all, just small wattage stuff for short periods