Author Topic: How about a more realistic discussion here? Where should one get a safe place?  (Read 1459 times)

IEFPRO

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What do I mean about more realistic?  Well for one I am not going to move from the USA "just incase" something might happen in the near future. So that leaves the need to go somewhere safe because the "risk" has been realized.  SO now how feasible is it that I live in Texas and I have a great survival place in New Zealand - or Belize or where ever.  So unless some one is going to give me a nice private warning several weeks in advance - I would be stuck in Texas wondering who is actually using my wonder survival place in New Zealand or where ever.

So with that said - lets ask some questions:

1) Where in the USA are valid sites?
2) How far is to far?  If Something happens that makes me run for the hills - how far is to far for the hills?
3) How far does one want to be from large urban centers, like Dallas or Austin Texas for example?
4) What should one have already at the site?
5) What should one have prepared to take to the site or to get them there?
6) How much land should one get as a minimum?
7) What should the land look like?
8) What kind of shelter or improvements should be done to the land?
9) What Have I missed here? Like how does one prepare the site for protection?

Folks even though I know that many would say go live the life now, many who are interested in survival are reliant on the Urban/City life style until something changes.  So I would like to start a lively discussion about something more realistic as to what we really should be doing.

BTW the way - I do not mean to offend - if I was ready to retire - then Belize or New Zealand or where ever might be really cool!

Ryder

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"Patriots, surviving the coming collapse" by James Wesley, Rawles.
"Wolf and Iron" by that LDS guy.
"Lucifers Hammer" an old classic.
http://standeyo.com/Our_Books/DTP.html
"Hand made world." Optimistic book.
Some of these are interesting scenerios of surviving. Water , food, shelter and defense. I live within a days walk of true wilderness with four smaller hydro electric dams close by. A major river and lakes with edible fish year round, historicly and presently the land supports grain, corn, potatoes and squash with unused gravity flow ditches on almost every small tributary coming out of the hills. Cities over 100,000 population are more than the distance one gas tank of gas will take a car. Firearm ownership is normal and building codes are minimal.
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

Dame

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Rural communities anywhere tend to be low turnover places.
 
I grew up in one and currently live in another with a 25 year trip through an urban center in the middle.  I cannot say I have more than a very few friends in the city. 
Home is still the place I grew up and I still go there to visit annually for a few days if possible.  I am still accepted as part of the community by most.  My grandparents were freinds with thiers.  Here, after 10+ years, we are still the new people that the neibours are getting to know.  Thier grandparents were freinds and neighbours and their parents grew up together.
 
Community provides a great deal of security in all its manifestations in rural neibourhoods and this is because people know one another well, know who responds how, who is good at what, who needs help this week or year.
They speak their own language, I call it farmer, and it varies somewhat by community.  My husband, who had never lived in the country before is just now getting the hang of it. 

Towns are somewhat intermediate.  Many of the disadvantages of both rural and urban.  Housing is less expensive but so are wages and many services are obtained long distance in the urban centers.  Some of them are outright unfriendly and some have more bylaws than Manhattan.  Privacy can be non-existant and everyone can have an opinion about everything.

If you are looking at a town to relocate to, I would suggest that town culture, customs and attitudes need to be a match as well.  It is as tight as a landlord tenent situation in the same house.

In the town closest to us, services such as butcher, baker, any trade, or profession would be a welcome addition and houses remain reasonable, as well as taxes and utilities.  I would look at the demographic, here the majority of children are farm based and the small businesses operated by people who would really like to retire.  I suspect this may be true in many small towns in agriculturally based areas.

My personal opinion, based on experience is that the best likelihood for survival would be in small groupings of small independent land holdings where the actual living accommodations are very close to oneanother.  This is not a usual practice here in N.America. 

I will use an example.  If four of us each have a milk cow for milk, cream, butter, cheese and meat (the calf), for that cow to freshen (have a calf and start producing milk) there needs to be a bull.  One bull, in current hurds is good for a heard of 40 cows.  Well it would take a large community for fourty cows, and so who needs a bull for each.  They eat way too much and require careful handling as they can be dangersous. 

Then there is the milking.  Each cow will produce approx. 5 gal of milk per day.  More than enough to keep the ave. family in dairy.  However, milk cows need to be milked twice a day at 12 hr intervals every day.  It only takes a few minutes to milk, feed, water, clean the barn etc. but it is every day, twice a day.  Way further ahead to have am shift, pm shift and weekend shift or some such labour splitting arrangement and each do all the cows at the same time.

Without improted products, dairy becomes more important for people who do not have easy access to fish.
Soy milk products are extreamly labour intensive, I checked it out some time ago and to start with growing the soy all the way to tofu etc., I think making linen sheets would be less work.

All of us may have to work, rather than buy our way out of what is comming.   


Atash Hagmahani

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What do I mean about more realistic?  Well for one I am not going to move from the USA

And neither will most of my other readers, which is why I have never advocated any such thing. Discussions of opportunities elsewhere are not meant to be taken as relevant except for those who actually can (or for personal reasons, have to) take advantage of them.

1) Where in the USA are valid sites?

Most people will be safest away from big cities BUT ALSO away from deep-rural and especially away from non-agrarian areas. I generally recommend small to medium sized towns, with some existing REAL economy, or in other words stay away from oh-so-trendy exurban commuter communities, with no real local economy, that are just "bedroom" communities for long-distance commuters.

Look for lines of INDUSTRIAL transportation. Small towns with railway junctions, where there is some loading and offloading, are good.

Most such places will have a yard. Grow vegetables in it, but don't count on it for feeding yourself. Instead, get used to storing food.

WATER will be in short supply in some parts of the country. Think twice about living anywhere where you could not raise crops off rainfall and live off runoff from the roof.

If I were looking for cheap, arable land, I would consider West Virginia. Colder than heck in the winter, but the summers are long enough and hot enough to bring in crops.

One more thing to consider is heating or cooling where needed. W Virginia for example is VERY cold in winter--so I would want enough trees for firewood, in case I did not have other options. I would also want lots of thick blankets and good winter clothes.

2) How far is to far?  If Something happens that makes me run for the hills - how far is to far for the hills?

Generally speaking, you do NOT want to have to "run for the hills". If that's what it would come to, move now. Generally speaking, you are safest "hunkering down", and especially among family, friends, and friendly neighbors. Don't "run for the hills"; you will end up a refugee, then die.

3) How far does one want to be from large urban centers, like Dallas or Austin Texas for example?

It's not so much the size that concerns me as the sprawl and the number of potentially hostile denizens thereof. I would stay well clear of Dallas or Houston. Austin would not be as bad. The problem with sprawl is trying to get to food, work, friends, etc, when and if gasoline runs out or becomes unaffordable. Better to be in a smaller and preferably more compact town.

Imagine watching a time-lapse movie where you see farmers heading into the cities, and then cities emptying into the suburbs. Now play the movie backwards. That is what could happen as fuel prices keep going up (temporary reprieve notwithstanding).

4) What should one have already at the site?

I think this question assumes a retreat location. I am not recommending such a scenario.

5) What should one have prepared to take to the site or to get them there?

You might consider an "emergency pack". There are standard lists of what to put in them. Maybe someone can look them up, or I can. I think the most important item to have on hand is FOOD. Dry goods that keep easily, supplemented with some canned goods. But I am not recommending food stashed away strictly for emergencies, but instead a regular food supply that just happens to be unusually big. Think like a Mormon.

6) How much land should one get as a minimum?

Unless you really are in a position to be a farmer, forget about acreage, and make do with whatever yard it comes with.

7) What should the land look like?

Arable without irrigation, and not prone to floods.

8) What kind of shelter or improvements should be done to the land?

As little as possible to get the job done. Anything that requires a lot of maintenance is a bad idea.

9) What Have I missed here? Like how does one prepare the site for protection?

Protection from what? Assess it for floods because that is one of the most common natural hazards. Next, fire.

Protection from "un-natural hazards" (the two-legged kind) is mostly a matter of keeping a low profile and having lots of friends. But take all reasonable precautions. For example, avoid situations where someone could sneak up on you (lots of tall shrubbery close to the house, for example). Personally, I like to secure perimeters with formidable hedging--stuff like holly. It's good to have formidable defenses that don't LOOK like defenses (which puts the idea in people's heads that you have something to hide or protect in the first place).
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

IEFPRO

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All good commentary.  Unfortunately - I have to stay close to large cities and airports, because of the way I make my living.  If things hold off for another few years - I maybe able to do the move thing and take a lesser role in society.

So I am trying to formulate where in Texas would be a good spot to buy land.  Even though I do not make a living farming today, I grew up on a farm and my wife grew up on a ranch and she has a green thumb - so we are not totally ignorant in those areas. 

I currently live in an urban center - that used to be 10 miles from the nearest store - but the Dallas sprawl has grown out to us and it has surrounded us.  The weird thing is that imagine that I live in a large city now - but still have 7 acres of land!  LOL - weird I know.  The little community I life in has a 5 acre minimum law.  I raise miniature donkeys on this small acreage, as well as, I have 3 standards.  When I move, I plan on continuing this and will add Long Horn cattle to the mix as well. So while I understand your thought - as "yard" just will not do, for us citified country folk.  LOL.

I guess my first concern is the interim period before I make the full transition. Most places that meet your thoughts about reasonable rainfall and what not , are with in 100 miles of very large cities.  Texans are reasonably used to low rainfall, but with the global warming mess - who knows where the new desert will be for sure?

We have been keeping a large food supply for years, that we rotate.  We buy a lot of our food staples from Sam's wholesale - so it is a case or 2 of things when we get them.  I am starting the bulk long-term storage project first of the year. But I need to have a back-up plan until I get to the final goal of moving from the Dallas area.  I do not think that anything in this area - even on my land is defensible - and I truly think that if it gets real bad - you will have to defend.

So that is why I think we need to have a plan to retreat - the good news is I d live on the outer boundaries of the Dallas area - so Getting to open country only takes a few minutes... I have a Ford F250 4X4 that has been beefed up. I have a fifth wheel that has plenty of solar and battery power along with ample propane for cooking. I also keep and rotate several 5 gallon cans of fuel.  So retreat is an option - if not the best one.  I think I can at any moment hook-up within a hour and be on the road - with fuel enough to make 500 miles (plus what ever happens to be in the tank at the time).

So what if I had a retreat say 400 miles from the city, had a water supply in place and had a years supply of dry goods already in place on say an acre of land?  Does that make any sense?  Again I know it is a tricky business - but your statement about dying if I hit the road - holds true for staying in place in a city like Dallas as well if conditions are so bad I would die on the road... In my mind the burbs will be the first place that the gangs in the inner city will head - and I don’t think it will take very long...  So while not great - at least I would have a slight chance on the road - and a really good chance if I make my retreat...

IEFPRO

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Oh I forgot - if you want a really great natural boundary protection - use Pyracantha coccinea (also known as FIRETHORN).  We currently use this on several of our fence lines, even the coyotes will not go through this stuff - and it is hardy and beautiful.  Make sure that if you use this plant you put it where you do NOT wish to go!  It has very nasty thorns and it grows to be fairly large and thick.

While I have never tried it - I believe you can turn a very large crop of these berries into jams or jellies as well.

http://www.floridata.com/ref/P/pyra_coc.cfm
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=PYCO2

Based on that USDA map - it looks like it could survive just about anywhere in North America.

Here is a good link for the edible berries of this plant http://www.paghat.com/pyracantha.html

So I would think this is like one of the best survival plants in the world - incredible land protection value - and food too!

Ryder

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IEFPRO, just my two cents worth in one word. Roadblock....if I was a bad guy I would be waiting for a F250 4X4 with a fifth wheel trailer headed out of town. Whithout sounding like a troll or a pesimist my comment would be: you are living on a large chunk of probably valuable land raising animals that maybe aren't too usefull for real work (i'm a mule person myself). What would happen if you changed your holdings and lifestyle?
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

konomonose

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"Patriots, surviving the coming collapse" by James Wesley, Rawles.
"Wolf and Iron" by that LDS guy.
"Lucifers Hammer" an old classic.
http://standeyo.com/Our_Books/DTP.html
"Hand made world." Optimistic book.
Some of these are interesting scenerios of surviving. Water , food, shelter and defense. I live within a days walk of true wilderness with four smaller hydro electric dams close by. A major river and lakes with edible fish year round, historicly and presently the land supports grain, corn, potatoes and squash with unused gravity flow ditches on almost every small tributary coming out of the hills. Cities over 100,000 population are more than the distance one gas tank of gas will take a car. Firearm ownership is normal and building codes are minimal.



Second on the Deyo books: it is called Prudent Places. They have a package on their site or same price from http://www.SteveQuayle.com   , which is another great site with lots of great links like "prep tips" and "survival tip of the week." (Holly Deyo is Steve Quayle's WebMaster and Stan Deyo is a frequent guest/guest host on Steve's  7 PM Eastern time weeknight ShortWave/ internet stream radio program)

Dame

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A discussion I recently had resulted in my checking out, at least via web, the current work of the Prince of Wales and his organic farming, heritage property restoration/reutilization, heritage plants and animals, local food self sufficeincy.  Apparently the heir's to the throne of Gr. Britain have been training for the job by running this estate for about 700 years.
Pretty good track record for creating stability, peace and prosperity.  It apperantly supports thousands of people.  I particularly liked the built in legal protections for all.

http://www.duchyofcornwall.org/index.htm

Ryder

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Some one elses idea of safe places. http://www.survivalblog.com/retreatareas.html
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

IEFPRO

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Wow great site with tons of information!~

Dame

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I think I am fairly clear about what most of us do not want.
I am certainly not clear about what most of us do want.

Safety can be priorized to the point of defensiveness.  Planning can be extended to the point of immobility.  When I play life's game of poker (speculative markets) I do best to sell/fold before the peek.  Do my best to take the swings out of the game by optimizing rather than maximizing.
Not very glamerous, yet lowers anxiety, and improves sleep.

Horticulture, agriculture, animal husbandry, heck raising kids all demand a good deal of risk and trust/faith in something.  Certainty is not one of the options.


oscar615

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Hey Ryder.  The book you mentioned, "hand made world".  I can't find it.  Could it be "World made by hand"? By James Kunstler?
Get your head in the game.

Ryder

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Dyslexics untie, Ya something like that I bought a copy and after reading it can't find it. It is a scenario where they are living in a town after the crash and everyone works hard and gets along, sortof. You have the right author. My favorite book for information right now is "when technology fails".
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

oscar615

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Thanks for the book titles Ryder.  I will read them.
As far as Patriots.  I read Triple Ought back in '98.  It is the precurser to Patriots.  Has anyone read both?  Should I take the time to read Patriots?  Is it that different?  I read the first couple chapters of Patirots and put it down.  As far as I could tell they were basically identical.  At least to that point in the book.  Patriots does have more pages so there must be some new info I suppose.
Get your head in the game.