Author Topic: EMP and LED  (Read 799 times)

oscar615

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EMP and LED
« on: October 30, 2008, 09:28:43 AM »
I am going to go buy a bunch of spare bulbs for my maglights.  They make both standard incandecent and led replacements.  The LED bulbs are much more energy efficient and have a lot longer lifespan than the standard.  So I could buy less of them or buy more and have light for alot longer period of time.  Does anyone happen to know if an EMP will effect LED bulb?  From what I understand EMP effects all intgrated circuits, diodes etc.  So I am assuming there may be an effect on LED bulbs, as they are didoes.  Any thoughts?

And come to think of it what about solar battery chargers.  Would those be effected?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 09:35:16 AM by oscar615 »
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konomonose

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 11:12:04 AM »
I do not know, but if you are buying a bunch, why not put all but those in use in a "Faraday cage" ( google it and consider  modified ammo cans) as they are so small many could fit in amongst other shielded electronics. also due to the construction of the mag lites, the spare in the tail of the light may, as in might???, be shielded faraday- wise anyway. hopefully someone else here will know.

Publius

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 07:29:39 PM »
Since I know a little about nukes, I'll throw in here. Your LEDs should be safe. Notice I said should. EMP has an energy density, just like any radio signal. Let me dirgress just a bit here. Radio waves and gamma radiation are light, you can't see it but it is. EMP isn't. It is a stripping of electrons from the atoms surrounding the blast. And like lightning conducting into the nearest thing they can get to. A regular blast creates some EMP. OK back to the radio signal analogy. When you are close to the transmitter the signal is stronger right? Same with EMP. There is a constant in nature called the inverse square law. Double the distance and it is 25% the strength. Take a flash light and shine it on a wall one foot or yard or whatever and then double the distance, to two. The circle will grow to four times and it will dim to quarter of what it was. Back again to the radio tower. When you are far away, an antenna is used to concentrate the signal. If you take the antenna away, then you may get fuzzy or no usable signal. EMP works the same way. The power lines, phone lines, coaxial cables (Cable TV) and satellite dishes will concentrate EMP on them like an antenna and poof, goes your TV and stuff. Some stuff like motors might be OK if not running. I would need to go look up some stuff in my books that I have, but energy density per volts/Meter is they way it's looked at. Unless say Russia decides to pop a 20 Megaton over the middle of the country, then the small stuff that N Korea or Iran could come up with wouldn't fry everything. A good strategy for them would be to pop one over the East Coast to take out our grid, maybe. The super small cross section of the leads on the LED are pretty safe. Plus they are pretty tough. Keeping things in a Faraday cage is a good idea, but if you got caught out, you would probably be good here. With a laptop or something else, different story. Cars may still work, then again maybe not.

Now you may ask, what is a small Nuke? Hiroshima and Nagasaki are small potatoes to what we and Russia have and have developed. 15KT and 20KT respectively. 20KT equals 20 thousand tons of TNT going off at the same time. In the 50's we had 20MT weapons. 20 MILLION tons of TNT equivalent. 1 Million is a thousand thousand, so a 20MT is a thousand times more powerful than a 20KT. The Soviet Union detonated a 57 or 59MT (depending on where you read it) weapon. The largest ever. Now if you are thinking that the 20MT would destroy a thousand times what a 20KT would then I would have to steer you to the inverse square law again. To destroy twice the area you need a weapon four times as large, so you get to a point of diminishing returns with this.

Why can't Iran have a big bomb. Well, it has to do with the difference in how they are made. The small stuff like Nagasaki are at there limit in power. They are Atomic bombs or fission bombs. OK so what is a 20MT? A Thermonuclear bomb or fusion bomb. What is the difference? Well one just uses Plutonium 239 or Uranium 235 and it uses fission to go super critical. The other uses fission as a trigger, using tritium, an isotope of hydrogen, as the fuel for fusion. (There are other ways to do this, but I'm going into them all) A miniature sun. The atom bomb creates lots of heat through fission and starts fusion with the tritium. No theoretical limit, but of course a practical one. Iran just doesn't have this sophistication YET. Eventually, yes, but fusion bombs become way more complicated to build and successfully work.

I get a bit long winded sometimes, but I want to touch on cars and EMP. Let use a worse case scenario, not rouge nation stuff. Newer cars of course would suffer the most and randomly. No way to predict if it will run or not. It will probably crank, but may not start. Starting systems can take a lot of current, they have too, along with the spark system, but the computer can't. Now if you have an older car that uses points and condenser, you could easily keep the condenser in a ammo box to replace a burned out one. That is the weakness in those vehicles, plus their need for electricity to run. The battery will take you only so far before running down without a charging system, that is if it fries. Diesels, same thing as with points/condenser except the alternator weakness. Actually older non-electronic diesels. My 83 Mercedes for example. Glow plug relay is vulnerable, but a some starting fluid in the intake and off she goes. They don't need any electricity once they are started. If the alternator is fried no problem she'll run and run. No headlights for long or heater or whatever, but you'll keep moving forward. Newer diesels have electronics out the wazoo. Not good there.

AndrewG

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 07:38:10 PM »
Wait, you mean the electronic mess caused by an EMP is PERMANENT??? It actually fries things? I thought it was temporary and they'd be back up in a few hours. This is not good.

Lady Lilya

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 07:51:07 PM »
Playing too much Starcraft, Andrew. 
A strong woman won't let anyone get the better of her… But a woman of strength gives the best of herself to everyone.

Alaskan

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2008, 08:14:33 PM »
 Yes Andrew, fried is fried. As Lilya said , you've been watching too much (what ever she said).
 Put it this way , you throw a steak on the BBQ and you burn it. It's burnt , no way it's ever going to be anything but a burnt steak.
 Same thing with circuit boards. Once their fried , their fried.............Alaskan

AndrewG

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2008, 08:17:39 PM »
Playing too much Starcraft, Andrew. 
nah, I'm waiting for SC2 to come out before I hibernate with it this winter.

Dame

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2008, 08:20:13 PM »
Yes Andrew, and thanks for the imput on the fix or dump our '81 Toyota 4x4.  We have been sitting here looking at it for a number of years.

AndrewG

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2008, 08:39:52 PM »
Yes Andrew, and thanks for the imput on the fix or dump our '81 Toyota 4x4.  We have been sitting here looking at it for a number of years.
Huh? That's the third time I have been mistaken for someone else in here. I don't know what you're talking about.

Ryder

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2008, 08:57:37 PM »
Does everyone know about emp on the power grid with the transformers that would take years to replace....if there was power?
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

opsec

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2008, 09:08:40 PM »
I think once an EMP hits, this country is pretty much down for the count, there will be no coming back, even after years. The reason is, our food supply depends on power for processing and preservation. If an EMP event hits, the people who with the knowledge to fix it would starve to death before they could get the grid back online.
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Dame

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2008, 11:49:27 PM »
Maybe this is too much specialization.

Lady Lilya

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 06:05:50 AM »
OK, I just skimmed, so maybe I will repeat something someone else said:

As I understand it, EMP below a certain threshold could have a temporary effect.  Some devices have built-in mechanisms to shut down during a surge to spare them unnecessary damage.  But, if the EMP is strong enough, it would just melt everything.

The strength of EMP drops at a rate that is the cube of the distance from the detonation.  So it drops off to basically insignificant very quickly. 

---

Re:StarCraft

I wouldn't be here at MAS if it weren't for StarCraft.  When we were living on a very tight budget, our only source of entertainment was a $10 video game out of the bargain bin every few months.  StarCraft turned out to be a good one.  (It is widely accepted as the best strategy game ever made.)  We would sometimes play against other people via Battlenet.  In one team battle, most of the team members were playing very selfishly, and we and another guy were trying to explain to them that we would all do better if we worked together.  They just insulted us.  Afterwards, we were co-miserating with the other decent team player, and we made friends.  Later on, he mentioned Nancy Lieder and the whole Planet X thing, so out of curiosity I went to her website to read what she claimed about it.  While reading there, I saw references to a forum called God Like Productions, so I went to take a look at that.  It was my first time at a forum, and even though it was a silly place, I enjoyed the experience.  Due to my chattiness, someone noticed me and invited me to another forum.  I didn't fit in there, because of too much censorship and the participants tended to be too New Agey for my taste.  But someone who noticed me there invited me to another forum, where I met Atash!

The moral of the story is, video games are not all bad.  ;)  And I am curious about SC2 also.  I am wondering how they could improve upon such a work of art.  I hope it isn't all just eye-candy.
A strong woman won't let anyone get the better of her… But a woman of strength gives the best of herself to everyone.

Alaskan

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2008, 12:25:53 PM »
 Here's a pretty fair story of a community pulling themselfs together after a big EMP attack.
http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf.
...................................Alaskan.....

darkdwarf

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Re: EMP and LED
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2008, 05:17:04 PM »
I read the story (Lights Out) and it pretty good in m humble opinion.
Remembering the Marines who now guard the streets of heaven--Semper Fi

 

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