Author Topic: HSBC suing MF Global  (Read 391 times)

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
HSBC suing MF Global
« on: December 12, 2011, 02:33:26 PM »
MULTIPLE PARTIES CLAIMING THE SAME BARS OF GOLD AND SILVER!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-09/hsbc-sues-mf-global-brokerage-over-stored-gold-silver-bars-1-.html

It's 12:31. Do you know where your PM bars are?

Folks, stuff is multiply-allocated left and right!! No wonder gold is red hot (most of the time. Continue expecting volatility. Can't be helped. But as a fraction of current prices, it's not that bad).
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »
HSBC is "Hong Kong-Shanghai Banking Corporation". One of the largest banks in the world (though rumors have it not doing all that well). An old British Imperial bank operating in Asia.
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

Lore

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 11:07:15 PM »
There are whispers about JPMorgan using MFG to avert a COMEX default, but details are sparse.
Quote
The judge handling the bankruptcy said today that in January he would address the matter of distributing physical goods, such as gold and silver bars, after lawyers for some customers said they couldn’t get their share of the payouts because bars can’t be broken into pieces.
Ummmm. :shocked011:

Commissioner Jill E. Sommers Responds to Concerned Customers of MF Global, Inc. (CFTC, 16-Dec)
Quote
...if we find that customer property was transferred to the parent company, we will do everything within our power to return it to its rightful owners,” said Commissioner Sommers.
Translation: "We'll do our best, but with no timeline and no guarantees. :shocked011:

Now we're getting somewhere:

JP Morgan Crashed MF Global to Avert COMEX Failure, European Derivatives Implosion (Jim Willie c/o Silver Doctors, 8-Dec)
Quote
We had a COMEX system failure in November.  COMEX was ready to default on gold and silver in November.  Rather than honor delivery demands in gold and silver- JP Morgan simply stole the money in the accounts that were going to stand for delivery.  They had their pockets picked while they were standing in line at the delivery window.  Notices of delivery were replaced at stolen accounts!

JP Morgan underwrites a lot of credit default swaps.  JP Morgan makes a lot of money in this unregulated insurance.  How are the sovereign bonds doing? They're doing lousy.  In order to stay neutral, its always a good idea to buy the underlying asset.  I think MF Global was set up to fail a long time ago to go down in flames- to steal clients' accounts when the inevitable finally happens.  We were on the verge of the sovereign debt in Europe imploding. We saw a near event of an implosion in some of these sovereign bonds markets.

JP Morgan covered their butts by letting MF Global fail, and in the process stealing 140,000 accounts.  Its not just MF Global accounts, its stealing many accounts that used MF Global for their clearing!

The FBI is investigating this, but they havent talked to Corzine yet.  WHY!?!  Because this is a cover-up, JUST LIKE MADOFF!

JP Morgan averted both a COMEX default and a European sovereign debt implosion, and notice that JP Morgan increased the amount of silver in their registered vaults by precisely the amount that was supposed to be delivered. 

This is just another financial 9/11, and THERE WILL BE MORE.   

If JP Morgan can steal 140,000 futures accounts, what's to stop 250,000 MUTUAL FUND ACCOUNTS FROM BEING STOLEN!?!
There’s enough misfortune in the world without having to make stuff up. - Doug Casey

Dame

  • Red team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2291
  • Good luck; bad luck; who knows?
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 11:57:42 PM »
Nice to see this sort of thing is finally being reported and they have moved from denying that it happens to at least pretending to investigate.  Those being ripped off are then out a bunch of money, not a good outcome but better than the previous victims being out a bunch of money and being told they were delusional to boot.

Mike

  • Ultraviolet team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1975
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 02:08:02 AM »
As I read Lore's quote of Jim Willie,
Quote
The FBI is investigating this, but they havent talked to Corzine yet.  WHY!?!  Because this is a cover-up, JUST LIKE MADOFF!
I thought, "Well, "FBI investigage??,  that will come to nought."

It is really bad that I am so jaded to Not expect anything of substance from the FBI.  And I really think I am right!

I never know what to think of Jim Willie.  He is always way out there.  I would like to think he is just crazy, but I am afraid he is not.

Thanks Lore!  (for posting)

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 11:18:29 AM »
I don't think Jim Willie is crazy, I think he's emotional. If you've heard him talk, he gets a little too excited while talking about things like this. He's not Kurt Richebäcker (whom he got to know late in the latter's life). The emotions may perhaps color his judgment.
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

offdalip

  • Blue team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1876
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 11:48:46 AM »
MFG has done soo many illegal things it is amazing

They are the 2nd largest Commodoties brokerage in the U.S. with over $7BB in customer
acccounts (Had). As such they should have filed for bankruptcy under Chapter IV as a
commodoties broker.
Instead they filed for bankruptcy under chapter VII as a securities dealer because they had
a minimal $200MM in customer accounts (Had).

Guess what?

Under chapter IV the customer is first in line to get BK firms assets
Under chapter VII the creditors are first in line to get BK firms assets

THIS IS JUST SOOOOOOOO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :scared006:
_______________________________________
"Events can move from the impossible to the inevitable without ever stopping at the probable"

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse...."

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 10:52:10 PM »
Quote
THIS IS JUST SOOOOOOOO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which is what is fueling the conspiracies:

* The regulators have gone along with everything they've done.
* The media has minimized coverage regarding what happened. It should have been front-page headline material.
* Nobody is commenting on the irregularities of the situation except for people on the margins of the whole system.

If I had to guess, the conspiracy was not to primarily to derail and thereby discourage long speculations in commodities including precious metals--though this outcome might very well have occurred to the schemers and have been a secondary benefit from their point of view. More likely, it was to set precedents regarding who has a place on a lifeboat, given that it is no longer possible to maintain the illusion that there are enough lifeboats for everyone.

They "kicked the can down the road" regarding the question of whether,  how, and to what extent, clients of MF Global will be "indemnified" ("made whole", compensated) for their losses, and within what time frame. The continuing uncertainty should be making folks nervous.

Apparently JP Morgan was a recipient of some of the client funds:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57346154/jpmorgan-may-have-missing-mf-global-funds/

Money was not the only thing re-allocated, so were physical commodities (further helping to fuel conspiracy theories):

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-silver-rush-at-mf-global-.html

Quote
The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.

That has investors fuming. "Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%," contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. "We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.

Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified.

The tussle has been obscured by former CEO Jon Corzine's appearances on Capitol Hill. But it's a burning issue for the Commodity Customer Coalition, a group that says it represents some 8,000 investors—many of them hedge funds—with exposure to MF Global. "I've issued a declaration of war," says James Koutoulas, lead attorney for the group, and CEO of Typhon Capital Management.

At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global, which filed for bankruptcy on Oct. 31. Adding insult to the injury: Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities.
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

offdalip

  • Blue team
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1876
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 05:17:11 AM »
This is ridiculous!!!!!!!!

James Giddens is a securities liquidator/ he is not a commodities liquidator!!!!!!!!!!
he should never have been chosen as trustee, WHAT?? you trust him???

This is like buying a car at a dealer and then the dealer goes bankrupt so the dealer
comes , takes your car and sells it to pay for his bankruptcy bills, GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

Guys, get out of the financial markets. they are rigged and set to blow up soon............
_______________________________________
"Events can move from the impossible to the inevitable without ever stopping at the probable"

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse...."

silverseeds

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 08:26:05 AM »

  what conspiracy theories atash? What we know of the truth is bad enough, and shows pretty clear imo some are above law.

   did you all here about the fed audit showing 16 TRILLION being given out secretly? Including foreign banks. this is not chump change obviously.

    The IMf systematically used economics over decades to subvert nations all over the planet. in the end most end up selling of resources. governments not complying were often gotten rid of, with only a few exceptions. the dollars role as reserve currency was key in much of that. It has used up its usefulness. Its the first world nations turns to bow, and sell off resources etc. Does this sound like conspiracy theory to you? you can trace it all out. theres no theory. in the meantime draconian law to control and watch the citizens was pushed into place. It was "conspiracy" at one point to think it would actually be pointed at us. yet many things make it clear it will be.

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 12:56:39 PM »
Quote
Guys, get out of the financial markets. they are rigged and set to blow up soon............

Aye, aye, Cap'n. Almost out. Need to do an inventory of miscellaneous small accounts to make sure I've got them all. Got everything out of the big accounts. I'm leaving them at the brokerage until everything clears, then I'll pull them out of the brokerages and send the remaining balances to the bank.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to organize cooperative purchases of income-producing real estate, organized probably as TICs (Tenants In Common) with each participant's share wrapped in an LLC.

Looking for apartment buildings near major employers, and farmland that does not require irrigation (state controls the spigot...).

Already have diversification into other types of TANGIBLE assets, but I would not mind making a business of helping other people find safe havens for their assets. I'm working on a report to explain my reasoning.

Silverseeds, I suppose it's not so much whether conspiracies happen or not, but which. I was referring to a specific rumor that I doubt is true.
We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

silverseeds

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 05:43:22 PM »


Silverseeds, I suppose it's not so much whether conspiracies happen or not, but which. I was referring to a specific rumor that I doubt is true.

Im curious what rumors you refer to though. (also your take of the rest of my post, although I realize its a bit off topic)

Atash Hagmahani

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8929
  • Learning from my mistakes since 1964
    • View Profile
    • Mutually Assured Survival
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 06:45:45 PM »
The specific rumor was that the MF Global debacle was a scheme by JP Morgan to take out PM longs, particularly silver longs.

While they may have been beneficiaries, the rumor seems unlikely.

Quote
did you all here about the fed audit showing 16 TRILLION being given out secretly? Including foreign banks. this is not chump change obviously.

No, I didn't. Is this a rumor, or a news item?

Quote
ts the first world nations turns to bow, and sell off resources etc. Does this sound like conspiracy theory to you? you can trace it all out. theres no theory. in the meantime draconian law to control and watch the citizens was pushed into place. It was "conspiracy" at one point to think it would actually be pointed at us. yet many things make it clear it will be.

I don't dispute this, though I would state it in somewhat different terms.

I think certain banking interests have always been parasitic both here and abroad; what has changed is the size of the pie. As the pie shrinks, they become more aggressive about taking their "share", and their impact on the economy becomes more noticeable.

We're running out of petroleum. Are you ready?

Learn about food self-sufficiency and food security at New World Seeds & Tubers.

silverseeds

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
    • View Profile
Re: HSBC suing MF Global
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 07:13:45 PM »


No, I didn't. Is this a rumor, or a news item?

It is a news item. Although almost completely ignored.

being ignored this is probably one of the more reliable sources.

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3