Author Topic: Diminishing gratitude?  (Read 266 times)

Ryder

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Diminishing gratitude?
« on: November 30, 2011, 09:56:47 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/embed/OAOrT0OcHh0?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent
Interesting (to me at least) comment on the occupy protestors. Altho I feel that the entitlement mindset is spreading accross the curent culture.  The term asymtope...or something like that  is a interesting geometry term where two curves get close together but don't meet.  Here in montana there was a program for troubled teens that basicly took them out in the wilds in summer and winter and they had to get  along and provide for themselves. It was quite successfull with low repeat offenders.
Gotta learn how to knit socks and mittens if you want to survive in montana.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 12:37:29 PM »
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Here in montana there was a program for troubled teens that basicly took them out in the wilds in summer and winter and they had to get  along and provide for themselves.

Certain types of mildly stressful situations have the interesting effect of causing people to stop feeding their egos.

I am now fairly convinced that we're having a crisis of over-developed egos. Basically, we feed them "stories" and put "masks" (in Greek: "persona"--the masks the ancient Greek theatre actors wore) over our true selves.

They interfere with our performance--performance in what? You name it, pretty much. Ever notice how people who are severely neurotic stutter a bit--have difficulty expressing themselves when nervous? It's caused by filtering mechanisms in their brains choking off the words, because they are so self-conscious, they become chronically self-censoring.

It's what causes the widespread fear of public speaking--people who are obsessed with themselves and their self-image, to the point they can't talk because they're not thinking about what the audience wants or needs to hear, instead they're attention is wrapped around themselves. They're self-censoring to the point of breakdown.

It'll also affect the performance of playing a musical instrument, dancing, drawing a picture, or shooting a gun. It also adversely impacts job performance and performance in school. At this point I suspect it's actually the major culprit in marital breakdown (the couple are not validating each other's egos enough...because it's never enough...).

Schools are a major contributor to it. You get a high-strung teenager who performs at a mediocre level. To encourage performance not to mention conformity, the teacher often routinely rewards obedience, and the reward is typically some sort of complement to the student.

The student then tries to "live up to" the complement. Problem being, you can't "be" an action. Performance is an action, not a thing. You need to DO something, not BE something.

The correct way to complement a child (or an adult for that matter) is to praise the ACTION not the performer. For example:

"Wow, perfect score on your test! You memorized all the right answers!"

not

"Wow, perfect score on the test! You're really smart!"

It's believed that this is why Asian kids of immigrant families outperform white American kids; the Asian parents tend to be stingy with praise including the destructive kind. Actually, that turns into its own problem. Best strategy is to praise the action, not the actor.

The performance of kids who are praised tends to plummet. They become so obsessed with themselves that they stop trying.

The problem seems to skyrocket in adolescence. My suspicion at this point is that it has nothing to do with hormones, it has to do with teenagers trying to "find themselves" and "discover who they want to be". To perform, you need to "lose yourself".

The now widespread practice of recruiting young adults who are barely past their teenage years themselves to be youth leaders has catastrophic consequences; they're massively reinforcing the search for false identities. Notice all the superficial identities that young people today assume: Jock, Goth, Emo, Fanboy, Freakscene, Gamer, Riot Grrrrrrl, Skater, Straight Edge, etc etc etc.

(those of you who don't know what I'm talking about: these are various identity groups that young people tend to fall into these days. Emo kids for example are forelorn-looking, suicidal, androgynous waifs with severe self-esteem issues).

I'm trying to organize some outdoor activities designed to starve and disrupt the egos of the participants. Typical scenarios would be to go camping with NO luxuries, and spend time fasting, praying or meditating, or going on vision quests. I would suggest that not all participants engage in physically challenging (eg, fasting) activities at one time, so that the non-participants can rescue the participants if it gets a little too intense. I would also suggest that the non-participants know what to do if someone has a psychotic breakdown, which is a distinct possibility especially if we took some teenagers with us.

I assume that a graduated challenge would work better than throwing someone in the deep end like they do in the backwoods of South America, where pampered European kids not realizing what they are getting themselves into have been known to have breakdowns. So, for example, first time out it might be just really primitive camping with some communal sing-alongs around the campfire, some prayer or meditation, and breaking of addictions.

Then each successive time it gets a little more intense, up to some pre-defined plateau--you don't want to get addicted to...what's the word for deprivations like fasting and penance? Gosh, it's so out of date I can't remember the word anymore. Anyway, there is an art to this.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 12:48:48 PM by Atash Hagmahani »
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Dame

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 09:15:22 PM »
I suspect you would need a court order to get them out there and possibly a human rights waiver.

oldsoldier

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 01:21:00 PM »
 Not so sure where the root of the problem lies. With the parents in a large part. BUT the permissiveness of society today, both in and out of our educational system IMO is just as much to blame as the parents. When schools fail the student by passing them on and/ or graduating them regardless of their grades they ultimately set the kids up for failing in life.  My wife calls this the "owe me" generation. As a proffessor at a local college  she see's students who fail to attend class's half the time score below 50% ( some as low as 10%) on exams. Have a math skills level of a 4th-5th grader and wonder why she fails them in a college level algebra class.  Rather than learn or try harder ( she will even work one on one and tutor the ones who ask) they act like you took a dump in their breakfast and feel treated unfairly.  The don't seem to care that being failed was no ones fault but theirs.  IMO the "owe me" mentality is the reason why a good portion of society today is becomeing less and less grateful for what they have.  When I was growing up I was glad we had a TV in our living room.  I never dreamed of a plasma in my bedroom, much less an ipod or whatever. ( Even if they existed then)  My first car was a 15 year old ford that I saved for for 3 years working summers. Now it's seen as child abuse not to give them a brnd new car the day they turn 16.   I guess this is a frightening glimpse of what our future holds.   
If I can use my experiences, mistakes, to help one person learn to survive, then everything I've been through then every minute will have been worth it.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 09:55:53 PM »
My current prediction is that the failure of the economy will pull the technological and economic props under these kinds of people.

Remember that video someone posted, of "places not to be"? Los Angeles was one of them, because too many people compared to the amount of food and water....and the Prozac will run out...

Increasingly I think he has a point on that last item, as odd as it sounds. Also "entertainment withdrawal". These are people with short attention spans, and poorly-developed executive functioning.
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Dame

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 12:33:20 AM »
We believe we have lost a number of rather dear friends to Prosac and related drugs.  For some reason it is easier to deal with the losses to non prescription substances.

The Future

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 07:20:11 AM »
Disconnection from the source feeds ingratitude.  How many adults, never mind kids, think food comes from a grocery store?  Capitalism - an ongoing experiment for which the last word has not been written, in fact only the first few words have been written - has driven low cost workers in far away places to provide highly valued items on the cheap.  And the buyers don't see that.  I am going to buy a16 GB iPod nano that poses as a watch, can track my workouts, steps, pace and store a gazillion songs...for $150?  It is too easy.  But wait, the people who mined the conflict minerals what did they get paid?  Pennies.  Add to this a political system, ongoing experiment called democracy, that promotes a superiority complex (we are better because blah blah) against a backdrop of nice cheap stuff and yes, the ego is fed waste functions accordingly.

It is a spiritual problem not in the commonly used religious sense but in terms of not experiencing unity amidst plurality.  Disconnection from internal source of oneness thus obliterating any hope connecting in relation to external sources. 

Emptiness.


Re praise, we adopted the approach of praising effort, focus, diligence etc. (I.e. the traits you want to cultivate) rather than results.  There is a web article on the inverse power of praise that speaks well to the matter.  The results do need to be referenced but in reference to the traits.
Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2012, 01:28:34 AM »
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It is a spiritual problem not in the commonly used religious sense but in terms of not experiencing unity amidst plurality.


I think I might know what you mean. Buddhists speak of everything being connected to everything else. Modernist mindsets tend to think in terms of concepts that somehow exist magically disconnected from their context. Ironically that is the source of a great many economic errors: failing to account for upstream and downstream systems, as if a thing just "exists" without any context. They make changes that fail to account for how they will propagate through the rest of the system.

I am currently thinking that an integral life practice is one that accounts for body, mind, spirit, and relationship. If you think of a Cartesian 2-space, one axis is labeled "interior - exterior", the other is labeled "singular - plural". We need to pay attention to all 4 quadrants. They correspond to different perspectives, and different levels of plurality: I, you, he/she/it, we, you plural, them, all of us (everybody...including other species if you go out far enough from the axis), all of you, all of them.

Quote
Re praise, we adopted the approach of praising effort, focus, diligence etc. (I.e. the traits you want to cultivate) rather than results.

Good point. You want them to take pleasure in the process itself, and to consider the results to be feedback that you can respond to without "attachment". Excessive attachment to results leads to cycles of overconfidence, frustration, and giving up, depending on how things go. You need to respond to results, but rationally, not emotionally.

Maria Montessori (not to be confused with Montessori schools which did not accurately put her principles into practice) told the story about an incident she witnessed. The star pupil and the ne'er do well were both sitting near each other in the same corner of the class. The ne'er do well was made to sit on the dunce stool with a dunce cap on his head. The star pupil, on the other hand, was rewarded by getting to wear the special "silver cross of honor".

The star pupil noticed the ne'er do well looking longingly at his silver cross. So he pulled it off, handed it to him, and got back to work.

High performers tend to take delight in their work. Low performers tend to long for rewards as an end in themselves.
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The Future

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 10:19:23 AM »
Agreed.  From a causal perspective, perhaps your last line could be flipped?  I.e. Rewards tend to create low performers.  Coaching in delight in the work tends to create high performers.  Capacity to take appropriate risk is blunted.thru rewards (studies has shown kids shy away from anything where they might not actually succeed whereas kids coached in diligence, focus tend to be more open to unknown territory...)
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 02:19:25 PM »
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From a causal perspective, perhaps your last line could be flipped?  I.e. Rewards tend to create low performers.  Coaching in delight in the work tends to create high performers.

It's fairly common for phenomena to be locked into feedback loops : (A causes B) AND (B causes A).

Self-reinforcing processes are typically how small differences in initial conditions result in huge differences downstream.

I became aware of part of the problem a long time ago. Back in college, I noticed certain women who would start rather a lot of sentences with their self-identification as a reason for everything:

"As a feminist, I believe that..."
"As a feminist, I'm a vegetarian..."
"As a feminist, I'm a pacifist..."

It struck me as being odd that what they believe, or claim to believe, is a function of what they believe themselves to be. The other thing that struck me were all the glaring mismatches between their professed beliefs, and their actions:

At a party: huge pile of chicken bones on the plate of the "vegetarian who loves animals".
"As a feminist, I'm volunteering for Diane Feinstein, because I want justice for the people of Iraq".

If you point out that Feinstein voted for, and was one of the top profiteers in the Senate thereof, a situation in which depleted uranium shells were raining down on the heads of civilians who never did any of us any harm, she would become very angry and start spouting irrelevant nonsense:

"YOU'RE JUST SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU LISTEN TO RUSH LIMBAUGH!"

There's no point arguing, because she simply rejects, and becomes angry over, any information that contradicts her sense of who she IS.  "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I'M HELPING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WAGING THE WAR; I'M A PACIFIST!"

Gloria Steinem was once on local radio. A caller came on (a woman by the way) who asked her why she felt that women were being treated unfairly but never spoke out against men being drafted. There was an awkward pause, then she stammered "I'm a pacifist". The pandering interviewer then proceeded to reassure her about what was wrong with all these nasty people with bad attitudes.

Similarly, Joan Baez was once asked what she would do if she saw someone raping a child. She stammered and was unable to answer the question.

(The correct answer is some variation of "I would take measures to stop it", or "He'd have to kill me first!", or even  or even "I would assertively but non-violently confront the attacker!". Otherwise it betrays a LACK of concern for other people. You could even work it into your agenda: "Well, I'd do something to stop it, because I hate unprovoked violence against others. That's why I'm opposed to the Vietnam War, yadda yadda...").

Since, in her mind, she IS a "pacifist", who "cares about people", the consequences of her actions, or for that matter, lack thereof, are totally irrelevant to her; she can't even "see" them; instead, she comes up with rationalizations that are convincing to her, but to no-one else except fellow travelers with the the same ideological orientations.

The Sansrkit word for action is "karma", by the way. People think of it as some sort of cosmic reckoning system, but all it means, literally, is "action". Actions have consequences.

It took me a while to make all the connections to more subtle patterns of behavior. It's actually a very common behavior pattern, it's just not as obvious among people whose identities are less ideological, less fanatical, and whose behaviors are at least more superficially consistent with their identities.

When you tell someone that he or she "IS" smart, "a geek/brain", or "good", or project visions of being the big hotshot engineer or doctor or lawyer, you're setting them up to become obsessed over trying to live up to the self-image, but only in the most superficial way possible. It's rather easier to "be" something by just calling yourself that thing, than to integrate a pattern of behaviors to actually DO something.

That's how "smart kids" end up underperforming, often going into college with straight-As from high-school, then flunking out their freshman year, because of their failure to adapt to the necessity of a much more rigorous study schedule. It's also how "good kids" from "church youth groups" end up in all sorts of horrific scandals.

The problem often seems to reach a crisis point right around teenage years. I suspect that this is the real reason that teenagers are often difficult for parents to manage. It's not the hormones; it's trying to live up to their sense of who they are, which has been crystallizing throughout their childhood, and, moreover, ASSERT that sense over reality and their parent's rights. They're trying to live up to who they think they are, in part, because they think their friends care--except the sad truth is their friends care only to the degree that their sense of identity reinforces their own!!

You can't BE anything. You can only DO, or NOT DO.

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The Future

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Re: Diminishing gratitude?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 07:23:54 AM »
This is a very coherent line of thinking.  Language is a chief thing that seperates MAN from animals.  Use of it to create an identity, without questions, shapes how people behave and the degree to which success is met.  True success (which a wise man taught me equates to achieving your goals while bringingno harm to yourself or others.  It must include all areas of life not just finances.  How many rich men are failures as husbands, fathers, brothers, community leaders etc.)

In some ancient traditions, words were considered deeds.  In the ancient Egyptian language, Tchet represents both word and deed.  In other words, as you think, speak so shall you do.  But not in a superficial way ("think positive").  If one identifies as an animal, words will beused that both justify and enourage animal like behaviour (greed, selfishness, anger etc).

Identify as human, and one justifies human like behaviour (limited in knowledge, power, seperate from all other reality). 

So what is left?  Thinking based on divine laws (a deep topic) justifies divine behaviour, and the guaraunteed success that comes from that.  Otherwise what appears to be rational thought (i am a good father..) leads to harm in a particular setting (...therefore i ain't putting up with...).  At the highest level, Consciouness itself can be viewed as an identity and worldly activity justified based on that....
Wise selfishness is taking care of everyone else so that they don't bring harm to you.