Author Topic: Gadaffi dead  (Read 519 times)

Dame

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 11:06:46 AM »
Our, both sides of the 49th, capacity to influence outcomes here at home, may or may not yet be entirely lost.  On the chance we still have something to say about our own countries, our participation as nations in summary executions is a direct threat to the democratic protections we supposedly have here at home.  As such, I think we need to at least discuss it.

My concern extends to the withdrawal of voicing an opinion I have seen on forums, in news reports, even on the street since this stepped up state sponsored assassinations, sanctioned executions, etc. where we are present and involved.  The media seems to focus on US involvement as the major player in these events, yet all people, in all NATO nations are complicit and I therefore feel I need to say something.  We are hardly showing leadership if our presence simply increases the hardships the people of these nations experience.

People, both here and abroad, do need some option other than the imported or homegrown predatory tyrant.   

Lady Lilya

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2011, 07:41:47 AM »
I keep seeing so many posts on FB of people either celebrating or mourning a death of a public figure.

My feeling about this is: I never met the person, so it is hard for me to feel much about their death.  All we know of them is the public persona that was created by the media.  We have no idea how accurate that is.  So really, all we have of this person is an idea of them in our minds that is not real.  A fantasy.  I just can't bring myself to feel anything about the death of a fantasy.
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offdalip

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2011, 09:44:03 AM »
would it had been better to let a mass murderer continue living,
if you knew that if you did let him live that he would continue killing
tens of thousands of more people?
We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out.
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silverseeds

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 11:50:46 AM »
would it had been better to let a mass murderer continue living,
if you knew that if you did let him live that he would continue killing
tens of thousands of more people?
We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out.

   im not even going to say whether or not we should "let" such a man exist. he is far from the only one. He is without a doubt as bad as you say... yet economically he WAS trying to empower africa. He was offering them an alternative to a different dictator, and make no mistake.... if you stand in the way of this other global instead of regional power you will be just as dead as standing in gadaffis way within libya. If I was libyan and understood the global threat, theres no doubt in the world I would prefer the smaller tyrant who atleast cared if I had food in my bowl. who values liberty I wouldnt actually want either one. You could relate it to would you rather have an imp of satan as a leader? or satan himself..... That is what it amounts to. a global grid of control is being built and anyone who stands in its way is erased.....

What do you think the completely unproven AGW is all about? you realize how long, and how many lies it took to get there? its one of many possible paths to global governance is all. If you study the issue in depth if you have not to date you will see many more then gadaffi could ever hope to kill were already killed in this pursuit. large multiples more were economically enslaved.

the selective way dictators such as this fool are targeted gives this away clearly. He did deserve what he got. As do the global dictators.

Dame

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2011, 12:13:02 PM »
would it had been better to let a mass murderer continue living,
if you knew that if you did let him live that he would continue killing
tens of thousands of more people?
We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out.

"We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out."     ?????

We snuffed out way more than one to  prevent the snuffing out of how many?  And who is qualified to do the comparative body count?  And who is qualified to determine the difference in quality of life for those remaining in the rubble we created?

offdalip

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2011, 04:32:51 PM »
Quote
We snuffed out way more than one to  prevent the snuffing out of how many?  And who is qualified to do the comparative body count?


That is impossible to say.  25,000 went down in the civil war..

For sure he would have killed that many if left till he was 80-90 y/o

the rubble at least has a choice on how to live and breath now.

Do you think they fought this hard for no reason?

Quote
yet economically he WAS trying to empower africa.

I think he was trying to bribe them and make himself king of africa or at least boost his ego.

There sure are alot of warlords in africa trying to EMPOWER the people right now, it is just a matter of which warlord is able to take
over the best resources.............



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"Events can move from the impossible to the inevitable without ever stopping at the probable"

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse...."

Dame

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 10:34:31 AM »
Rubble not rabble.  The place looks like they have just had a major earthquake.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:36:38 AM by Dame »

The Future

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2011, 08:34:31 AM »
Funny how we can hypothesize about what a dead man would have done and thereby justify his murder all the while living as half ass citizens in a society full of corporate and political dictators and can't even muster a whimper for their murder.  Call me a trouble maker but I have to call hypocrisy what is is.  This is the same thinking that justified atrocities against million based on some BS "well here is what would have happened" scenario disguising the equally wicked intent of those "delivering justice"....this is the devil's work....and by the looks of things support for it will continue. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 12:19:50 PM by The Future »
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bunkie1

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 10:35:10 AM »
couldn't agree more thefuture, and dame! we need to be paying attention to our ownbackyard.

Saddam, Bin Laden, now Ghaddafi. how many innocents were killed by our drones and such to 'get' these men? more than they killed? it doesn't seem right. who will be next? our war-mongering administration is becoming them. guess we have to follow the oil or the pipelines and the monies to see who's next.

opsec

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2011, 03:28:32 PM »
would it had been better to let a mass murderer continue living,
if you knew that if you did let him live that he would continue killing
tens of thousands of more people?
We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out.

"We just saved countless human lives by snuffing one out."     ?????

We snuffed out way more than one to  prevent the snuffing out of how many?  And who is qualified to do the comparative body count?  And who is qualified to determine the difference in quality of life for those remaining in the rubble we created?

This much I agree with.
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 06:41:30 PM »
I'll stay out of the debate because at this point what "shoulda woulda coulda" happened is moot since the die is already cast.

Time to move forward.

Bunkie, I don't think you were here long enough ago to read some of my comments, which might have been somewhat subtle and understated anyway (we try to keep a low political profile here, because we're already potential targets as it is for various reasons...), but it was pretty obvious what Mr. Obama would do well before the election. The folks at antiwar.com were all over Mr. Obama even that long ago; his evasive and sometimes disingenuous rhetoric, and his financial and political connections, gave him away. They pointed out that at the time of the last elections, the majority of US opinion had already turned against the wars, and yet he was failing to take a solid stand on issues that would have won him points.

Now Glenn Greenwald is claiming that he and his State Department are pulling a fast one on the "withdrawal". Unfortunately, this deception almost certainly involves Iran.

The goal IS escalation.

Fast foreword a bit: if Iran were bombed, they would immediately launch attacks on ships in the Persian Gulf. They did it during the Iran-Iraq war and sank at least one big Cypriot tanker, resulting in a panic in the oil markets that caused a brief shock to the oil markets.

In the future the situation might be rather more grim.

No need to follow the money; we already know where it is: an oil shock would make some parties exceedingly wealthy, and it would create the crisis needed as a pretext for "reactions" and "solutions".

Many people even within the ruling elites believe that this is a mistake, because it would put our military position in Iraq at risk, and because the global financial system is already so fragile.

However, whether that is a problem or not depends on one's point of view, and there is another faction that WANTS more body-count. "Controlled chaos" as they call it--though some are concerned that it would destabilize. It would also create a pretext for a military draft, which has been in the wings for a while waiting for a sufficiently big pretext for demanding one against popular resistance.

We can talk about the motive for a military draft offline but not here.

As far as what to do about the situation--well first duck and cover; just like in the airplane crash scenario you can't help anyone until your own situation is sufficiently stabilized that you have the bandwidth.

Everyone is responsible for his own actions. I can't stop the future massacre that I foresee from happening.

To the extent that other parties lit the fires that are burning other people's homes down, and did it in my name too, what I suggest is seeing what can be done to help out the folks whose houses are burning down.

The Libyans have suffered some body count. Not as much as Iraq.

If I had to guess, the new owners of the oil contracts are going to demand an end to various subsidies that existed under the late Ghadaffi, which will effectively lower their standard of living.

Their infrastructure is damaged. Probably not as life-threateningly as Iraq's.

Iraq was doomed even before the invasion: Turkey and Syria have dammed the rivers upstream. Both the Tigris and the Euphrates are dammed, and there is no longer enough water to irrigate crops in Mesopotamia.

The population especially in central Iraq is at risk. They have been cut off from the oil revenues and can no longer grow food.

I've proposed a project in the past to find contacts in the country and see if we can help them with dryland (!!!) agricultural resources.

This is a daunting task. It is almost impossible to get goods into the country, and they are effectively boycotted by major international charities.

In 10, 20 years time, I expect mass starvation in that country.

Afghanistan was already one of the poorest countries in the world not to mention that it has been continuously occupied by foreigners--one group after another--since probably antiquity. I don't think it's ever been a truly independent country. The only resource I can think of that is presumably being fought over are the poppy fields.

Life expectancies are low and the country is in chronic squalor. The whole 3 cups of tea business was never anything but an elaborate deception used for propaganda and as a front for bogus intelligence--for which reason the operator's cover was finally blown by parties who didn't think it was worth paying for. It too is almost impossible to reach for sending help (the whole reason I knew the 3 cups of tea was a crock...I had already made some inquiries to see what could be done). They probably need tools more than anything else.

The next country likely to be in the cross-hairs is Syria. Libya was almost certainly an opportunistic adventure. Lebanon is already under pressure (Israeli warplanes are flying over almost daily) but we are unlikely to be directly involved.

There seem to be smaller-scale incidents going on in Africa as well, for example the 100 military advisers dispatched to Uganda.  This is probably why:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katine/2009/dec/02/oil-benefits-rural-uganda

China has also been busy in Africa (as well as Central Asia where word has it they've effectively "won"). Its oil resources are relatively young (ie, not heavily depleted yet).

I expect the wars to keep spreading into other oil-producing regions. I would also expect coups and assassinations where there are not outright invasions.

I suspect that several oil-producing countries in South America are in the cross-hairs, not for invasion but for coups or assassinations. The targets are too tempting; they'll simply bribe some locals to stage a coup and set up somewhat puppet governments.
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silverseeds

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2011, 12:28:35 AM »
The only resource I can think of that is presumably being fought over are the poppy fields.


Atleast a trillion in resources was "found there. Later it came out the russians knew this back when they were there, so we did as well probably. Some sources estimate it is several trillion.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2011, 10:26:44 AM »
The only resource I can think of that is presumably being fought over are the poppy fields.


Atleast a trillion in resources was "found there. Later it came out the russians knew this back when they were there, so we did as well probably. Some sources estimate it is several trillion.

I heard that rumor too, but never any followup. However, being dry and located in Central Asia, probably has some mineral resources, like Mongolia which is currently the site of some resource-related frenzy.

That's a risk to the natives, because the Imperial powers could start importing foreign staff the same way they did in other conquered territories, starving out the natives for jobs and turning their country over to a mixture of compliant foreign immigrants who have no common or national feeling.

Those "Russians" probably brought the maps with them when they defected after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The sudden reconciliation between the Soviets and the Trotskyites is why there was a sudden shift in the Left-Right ideology in the USA, and why almost to the last one the Vietniks were overwhelmingly pro-war, openly so when it broke out--when many of them shot off their mouths and I collected quotes--now covertly so because popular opinion turned against them.

It seems to me that the Cold War was not about central planning versus a free market economy, but rather, about one form of central planning versus another: the goal was always consolidation of economic power, and therefor, wealth.
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silverseeds

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Re: Gadaffi dead
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2011, 09:39:25 PM »



It seems to me that the Cold War was not about central planning versus a free market economy, but rather, about one form of central planning versus another: the goal was always consolidation of economic power, and therefor, wealth.

I believe the same thing based on the angle sI studied it from as well.

 

anything