Author Topic: Check out Belize and Argentina  (Read 1354 times)

Publius

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Check out Belize and Argentina
« on: October 26, 2008, 02:20:35 PM »
Belize looks pretty nice if you have to bail on the U.S. The official language is English, but of course Spanish is spoken too. Argentina looks promising too. Land is still decently priced, plus if you get an Argentinian citizenship, I believe you have visa free access to Spain and from there the European Union. I have been kicking this stuff around myself, but unless things get super crazy, the U.S. is probably where I will die.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 03:21:22 PM »
Several of us have been investigating potential havens.

Argentina is not a bad choice, but the country seems to have a perpetual problem with corruption and shakedowns. Christine Kirchner just nationalized the formerly private pensions (that could happen here too--pensions are one of the last big pools of money).

There is also the problem that although land is cheaper than here, the agrarian zones are fairly compact due to the Andean rainshadow and the horse latitudes. You end up with either subtropical soybean (cotton, peanut, sorghum, sweet potatoes) plantations, or orchards and vineyards dependent on irrigation. I have considered dryland agriculture on land that is currently sparsely populated, in one of the southern river-valleys.

One nice thing is that you can probably find just about anything and everything in Buenos Aires--and prices are very low by US standards. However, you could also make quick trips in that direction from neighboring countries, without having to actually live in B.A. Apparently price levels are fairly low for many products, throughout that whole region.

One nice thing is that resource-rich Brazil is nearby. You're unlikely to starve.

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the U.S. is probably where I will die.

If I did not have children, I'd probably just spend my remaining years in the hinterlands. The trends scare me, though, and unless they reverse the hinterlands will eventually be dangerous too.
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offdalip

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 04:39:42 PM »
never been to argentina but I know alota people from there, they have been thru desperate times in the past

I have been ti Belize, the capital is a must avoid situation at all costs, a real drug slum. The highlands next to the Guatemalan border is awesome!

Hydroelectric power , really cool people, eco-farming nice weather etc
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Watcher

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 08:14:27 AM »
I'd be very careful about Argentina.    Corruption, crime and unstable politics as well as an undependable currency.

As far as Central America goes,  Belize is peaceful and relatively lawabiding,  but be aware that being such a small country it does suffer from 'big village' syndrome, where certain politicians and powerbrokers have fingers in too many pies. I know of instances where British business investors have been told to 'sell' stakes in their successful companies to well connected locals in return for not being crushed with tax and regulatory demands.

Personally,  i think New Zealand looks a good bet,  a stable democracy, strong institutions with regard for property rights,   physically removed from trouble and a low density population.  I like the country and people very much so i might be biased but i did meet several North Americans there who had either settled there or had second homes there precisely because it seems such a sanctuary.

hancocs

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »
I not sure about Argentina at all. Not after reading FerFal blog. I think also someone posted the website, where he talk about the the colloapse of Argentina. It was under the Frugalsquirrels.com...I think. he painted a very bleek picture of their economy. If fact we should take great warning to what he said and his advise, the US could be heading the same direction. I would think twice about living in the country of Argentina.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 09:10:43 PM by hancocs »

Mike

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 08:23:59 PM »
What is the short list for places in the western hemisphere?

I think Argentina is out.

1. Paraguay?
2. Peru?
3. El Salvador?
4. Belize?
5. Costa Rica?
6. Urugay?
7. Panama?

opsec

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 09:21:18 PM »
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One nice thing is that resource-rich Brazil is nearby. You're unlikely to starve.

Back when the currency collapse occured in Argentina, there were reports of people dying of starvation in the northern provinces...very close to the Brazilian border.
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 11:25:52 PM »
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there were reports of people dying

Which people? All are not equal.  :happy112:

Brazil is one of the largest economies of the world. Top 10 certainly and it used to be top 5. But there is widespread squalor. The problem is the way it's allocated. Argentina is not as extreme, but it does have some poverty especially among the Indios.
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Gilgamesh

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 11:33:11 PM »
Panama might be a good choice.  What's everyone thing of Panama?

Rusty Shackelford

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 10:21:23 AM »
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there were reports of people dying

Which people? All are not equal.  :happy112:

Brazil is one of the largest economies of the world. Top 10 certainly and it used to be top 5. But there is widespread squalor. The problem is the way it's allocated. Argentina is not as extreme, but it does have some poverty especially among the Indios.

Brazil just discovered a huge off shore oil field in it's territorial waters.  They're estimating that by 2012 oil production from this field will be half of Saudi Arabia.  This will awash the country with Petrodollars.  However, the Brazilian government is making plans to ensure it doesn't swamp the economy.
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offdalip

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 10:25:13 AM »
They have to bring it up first, underneath hundreds or thousands of feet of rock / salt layers in the middle of the ocean miles below sea level.


Not like the Saudi's who just have to poke a hole in the ground
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Rusty Shackelford

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 11:13:14 AM »
They have to bring it up first, underneath hundreds or thousands of feet of rock / salt layers in the middle of the ocean miles below sea level.


Not like the Saudi's who just have to poke a hole in the ground

Their basis isn't going to be as low that's for sure (rumor is the Saudi's basis is about $.25/barrel).  However, they think at today's price (I think it was $42 in the article) they think they'll make money and at $75 they'll do well.  So far, they don't seem to be having any problem floating the debt to get the project off the ground - even with the drop in price.  Also, I seem to remember they run most of there vehicles on sugar cane ethanol - allowing them to export pretty much everything.

Also, I haven't read anything recently, but Argentina and Great Britain were getting heated up over the Falklands because of the oil find there.
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offdalip

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 01:45:52 PM »
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Also, I haven't read anything recently, but Argentina and Great Britain were getting heated up over the Falklands because of the oil find there

No more oil there , it ran out already. The North sea stuff is running out as well.

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Their basis isn't going to be as low that's for sure (rumor is the Saudi's basis is about $.25/barrel).  However, they think at today's price (I think it was $42 in the article) they think they'll make money and at $75 they'll do well.  So far, they don't seem to be having any problem floating the debt to get the project off the ground 

First they gotta find some deep water rigs, and all of those are tied up on other projects. There is no spare capacity in high tech deepwater drill rigs. And yes, I'm sure they'll make $$$ when oil hits $150 again soon, if they ever find some more rigs....
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Rusty Shackelford

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 04:07:18 PM »
Quote
Also, I haven't read anything recently, but Argentina and Great Britain were getting heated up over the Falklands because of the oil find there

No more oil there , it ran out already. The North sea stuff is running out as well.

Quote
Their basis isn't going to be as low that's for sure (rumor is the Saudi's basis is about $.25/barrel).  However, they think at today's price (I think it was $42 in the article) they think they'll make money and at $75 they'll do well.  So far, they don't seem to be having any problem floating the debt to get the project off the ground 

First they gotta find some deep water rigs, and all of those are tied up on other projects. There is no spare capacity in high tech deepwater drill rigs. And yes, I'm sure they'll make $$$ when oil hits $150 again soon, if they ever find some more rigs....

It sounds like they're building them.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13110394

Petrobras sets some ambitious targets

AMID all the graphs resembling ski slopes which plot jobs and car sales, the boldness of Petrobras may come as a relief to Brazilians. Last month the state-controlled oil giant published its revised investment plan for the next five years. Its proposed capital spending of $174 billion over this period is bigger than the entire economy of Chile. By 2020, if all goes to plan, Petrobras and its foreign partners will be producing 5.7m barrels of oil and gas per day (see chart), more than half the output of Saudi Arabia. New refineries and gas terminals are planned, as well as drilling rigs (29 of them to be delivered by 2012, with a further 28 arriving by 2017). And all this after the oil price has fallen by $100 a barrel from its peak last year.

When Petrobras announced in November 2007 that it had made the biggest oil discoveries of this century deep below the seabed, politicians became intoxicated at the prospect of untold riches. The government withdrew exploration rights in nearby areas from auction, and talked of setting up a new wholly state-owned company to do the job. It proposed a sovereign-wealth fund in which to house the treasure. Only a few critical voices worried that oil wealth might aggravate some of Brazil’s problems, such as corruption, resistance to reform and public-sector inefficiency.

The fall in the oil price, and the realisation that not much will be pumped from the new field until 2013, have cooled the fever. The Petrobras plan assumes that the current licensing regime remains in place. The company proposes to spend around $6 billion a year developing the new fields, which lie between five and seven kilometres under the sea, beneath a thick layer of unstable salt. The technical challenges are huge. Just getting workers to the rigs will be tough: some of them will sit 300km (185 miles) off the coast, requiring helicopters to carry three times their normal fuel.

José Sérgio Gabrielli, Petrobras’s chief executive, is undaunted. “We have the technology and access to reserves and we think we can finance it. Why not?” He says the biggest problem is to gather data about the nature of the field in order to minimise drilling. Others wonder whether in a world where credit is crunched, Petrobras can raise the cash.

Mr Gabrielli reckons Petrobras can generate $10 billion from operations this year and $12 billion-16 billion next year. These assumptions are conservative, says Gustavo Gattass of UBS Pactual, an investment bank. Petrobras has secured a large slug of cheap funding from BNDES, Brazil’s state development bank. It is negotiating a $5 billion bridge loan from a syndicate of five banks, which would give it up to two years to pick its moment to raise a similar amount in the bond market. This month it issued $1.5 billion of debt at an interest rate of 8 1/8%—a vote of confidence from wobbly financial markets. The company is also talking to the export-credit agencies of countries that supply it with equipment (such as the United States) or that might import its oil (such as China).

Even so, some Brazilians suspect the investment plan has been inflated to please the politicians who sit on Petrobras’s board. This is chaired by Dilma Rousseff, whom Brazil’s president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, has anointed as his favoured candidate in the presidential election due next year. Proposed spending on new refineries may fail to materialise, argues Edmilson dos Santos of the University of São Paulo’s Institute of Electronics and Energy. “Lula has made a lot of the idea that Brazil must refine its own oil but the market is in crude, as are the profits,” he says. He also predicts that Petrobras will end up flaring much of the gas that rushes out with the oil, rather than spending lots of money to liquefy it to generate electricity.

Mr Gabrielli insists that the investment in the sub-sea field can pay its way even if the oil price averages no more than its current level of around $45. With many oil companies cutting investment and production, the price may well be higher than that by the time the oil comes up from below the ocean. That, at least, is the reasonable bet behind an ambitious plan.
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offdalip

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Re: Check out Belize and Argentina
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 08:31:19 PM »
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José Sérgio Gabrielli, Petrobras’s chief executive, is undaunted. “We have the technology and access to reserves and we think we can finance it. Why not?” He says the biggest problem is to gather data about the nature of the field in order to minimise drilling. Others wonder whether in a world where credit is crunched, Petrobras can raise the cash.

Uh huh.......
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