Author Topic: Feasibility  (Read 1691 times)

Atash Hagmahani

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Feasibility
« on: October 18, 2008, 12:57:46 AM »
I have never thought that solar panels were particularly feasible, except in places like the Australian outback where the sun is so intense, and the population density too low to make stringing power lines feasible.

For those who don't know, the main problem with solar panels is that they cost about 60% of their lifetime output. In other words, it takes 60% of their estimated life-span to get back the cost of buying them!

It helps if you happen to live in a very sunny part of the world, but then you have the problem of lack of arable land, generally.

Passive solar on the other hand is fairly cheap and straightforward. Solar hot water is very simple, as is a solar heat wall, which is basically a sheet of glass in front of a concrete or brick wall, with vents going in and out for convection. Ideally you have a way of turning it off--by plugging the vents and covering over the glass, in the summer!

Probably one of the most important sources of energy is growing your own fuel for lamps (you probably won't get enough for heat, unless you're already in a fairly warm climate, or have lots of woodland to work with). This is FAR easier in the tropics than in temperate climates, but basically anything that produces vegetable oils, that you can extract with a press, will work. For example before petroleum derivatives were introduced (ironically, in the same part of the world!!!!), people in the Middle East burned olive oil in their lamps.

Cotton works well for the wick. I don't know what other fibers work; that would be worth finding out. Cotton needs long, hot summers. In the old days, fiber in temperate climates came from hemp--and actually it still does in many countries other than the USA where it is illegal to grow since circa late world war 2 (and even then, the industry had been in collapse due to the invention of nylon--although it seems to me that nylon rope is not interchangeable with hemp!!). Hemp is a nice fiber by the way.

If you're in the tropics, you can just burn candlenuts! You don't even have to do anything; the nuts are so high in oil they burn as is. In Hawaii they use palm midribs as a wick.

For cooking, you have several options. One possibility is to harvest the methane off of composting manure and nonedible portions of crop plants post harvest. You can handle it and use it a lot like propane.

In some parts of the world, solar ovens are popular. Obviously this only works in weather that is actually warm and sunny enough, and during daylight hours--but it does have numerous advantages such as not heating up the house in an already tropical climate, and not requiring fuel.

I've wondered if it would be worth it to use wind and water for mechanical torque, the way they used to be used.

I would suggest using electricity sparingly, and try to get as much done through non-electrical systems as possible. As the system breaks down, you won't have as many electrical toys to play with anyway.
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opsec

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 06:09:26 AM »
Up in Alaska, the natives use Candlefish. It's a small fish about 5" long that is so full of oil that you can literally dry the fish and then set it up on end and light the head on fire and it will burn like a candle.

Any natural fiber can be made to function as a wick. Cotton just happens to be one of the best suited to the task.

I think we will be largely dependent on animal power. Hook up a horse to a generator and dangle a carrot in front of his nose and let the generator charge up the battery bank.
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Lady Lilya

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 05:02:56 PM »
Carbohydrate power instead of hydrocarbon power.  The horse needs calories to do the work.  Human power works the same way. 

If I use my KitchenAid to knead my bread, it consumes electricity that was created by burning hydrocarbons.  If Atash kneads his bread by hand, he needs to replace the energy he spent with carbohydrates he eats.

Being able to do things by man power or animal power gives you the flexibility to use carbohydrates instead of hydrocarbons.
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Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 09:24:11 PM »
Go ahead and get some use out of that kitchenaid and have fun with it. But you might try your hand at bread dough some time just to get a feel for it. You'd be surprised how nice the dough turns out, and if you do a 5-minute autolyze, it's only a vigorous 5-minute workout.

The kitchenaid must be really nice for noodle dough, which is FAR harder to work. My family loves home-made noodles but they are so much work. I make a fairly stiff dough--otherwise it is too sticky to work. Italians usually use a softer flour, mixed with eggs or egg yolks. I use no eggs and bread flour.

My wife prefers to use something more like all-purpose flour. Otherwise, it is hard for her to work the dough.

I have thought about trying a still lower-gluten flour, which will produce noodles that are less chewy, and more "gelatinous".

Mitochondria work with something like 70-84% efficiency. And they're really "clean-burning" too!
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Lady Lilya

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 11:46:51 AM »
I kneaded by hand for several months before I got the KitchenAid.
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offdalip

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 01:45:24 PM »
Quote
I have never thought that solar panels were particularly feasible


I disagree, Solar cells ( at least silicon topology ) have still shown proven to be capable of generating electricity for 40+yrs. There are still ongoing tests that show the panels last much longer.
The issue is not the PN semiconducter junctions but the weather worthiness of the frame holding it together. the true problem is energy storage of which NiFe batteries have been the only chemistry known to last 100 years. In the future, large energy grids will not be maintained. We need small community Co-op grids
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offdalip

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 04:14:26 PM »
Off the grid will entail many components which, depending on your geographical resource setting would be one or some of the following:

Solar ( heat and or electrical energy )
Hydro / tidal / current ( physical and or electrical energy )
Wind ( physical and or electrical energy )
Geothermal ( heat energy )

Heat energy is always convertible to electrical but with the caveat of a big loss in energy. ( efficiency )

Where I am at , only solar makes sense with maybe tidal or current a distant contender.

In a closed small grid environment, you will need converters /inverters and control devices as well as storage for your energy during
non-energy producing times. These storage devices tend to be the archilles heel of your system and need some sophisticated devices to keep them working properly. ( the chemical ones anyway )
There are also some other ways to store energy that I haven't tested including using solar electrical to pump water up a height and then when it is needed let the water back down powering a generator. Electricity is essential for future living, lighting and learning
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 04:16:08 PM by offdalip »
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AndrewG

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 08:03:30 PM »
Wasn't (or isn't) the government offering a tax credit for installing photovoltaic panels on your home? I seem to recall it being a significant amount. Also: I think the life span/ efficiency of solar panels has increased quite a bit over the last few years. That and battery technology are increasing at seemingly exponential rates. We must have met some new aliens.

Rusty Shackelford

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 08:32:46 PM »
Off the grid will entail many components which, depending on your geographical resource setting would be one or some of the following:

Solar ( heat and or electrical energy )
Hydro / tidal / current ( physical and or electrical energy )
Wind ( physical and or electrical energy )
Geothermal ( heat energy )

Heat energy is always convertible to electrical but with the caveat of a big loss in energy. ( efficiency )

Where I am at , only solar makes sense with maybe tidal or current a distant contender.

In a closed small grid environment, you will need converters /inverters and control devices as well as storage for your energy during
non-energy producing times. These storage devices tend to be the archilles heel of your system and need some sophisticated devices to keep them working properly. ( the chemical ones anyway )
There are also some other ways to store energy that I haven't tested including using solar electrical to pump water up a height and then when it is needed let the water back down powering a generator. Electricity is essential for future living, lighting and learning


At one point - a year or two ago.  EPA funded a study powering UPS trucks in NYC using hydraulic pressure.  They would use a gas engine to compress the system, and then let the release power the vehicle.   I haven't seen any thing about since the initial announcement.
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offdalip

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2008, 09:47:47 AM »
Quote
At one point - a year or two ago.  EPA funded a study powering UPS trucks in NYC using hydraulic pressure.  They would use a gas engine to compress the system, and then let the release power the vehicle.   I haven't seen any thing about since the initial announcement.

I think you must mean compressed air not water since water is not compressible ( to any appreciable degree )

And yes, I have heard of compressed air being used to power vehicles successfully. The only problem is making a strong enough storage tank and the size of it.

Quote
Wasn't (or isn't) the government offering a tax credit for installing photovoltaic panels on your home? I seem to recall it being a significant amount. Also: I think the life span/ efficiency of solar panels has increased quite a bit over the last few years.

Yes, the credit is pretty big. I think it chopped off a few thousand from my tax bill a few years ago when I first installed a small home solar array. I should get an even bigger credit next year since
I am increasing the size of my array quite a bit this year. Single crystal Silicon is rated for 20 years but I suspect it is basically a lifetime , they just don't want to promise that. There is nothing chemically or physically to breakdown. Now, other topologies like Polycrystalline or amorphous or esp. cadmiun telluride, I suspect will have a shorter lifespan because some of those things may chemically break down or react with oxygen over the long haul.
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opsec

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2008, 12:10:32 PM »
Offdalip,
   What do you think of those new flexible solar panels that you can roll up like a poster? Are those as physically robust as the large, heavy panels or is it a short term thing?
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offdalip

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2008, 12:29:35 PM »
Quote
What do you think of those new flexible solar panels that you can roll up like a poster? Are those as physically robust as the large, heavy panels or is it a short term thing?


Definitely not robust. Anything that is flexible is by definition not robust.

which is a quite different question than how long will those last, with the caveat that it is placed in a rigid environment where it will not be flexed or moved.

if it was laid flat and never moved, I really don't know how long it will last. But my guess is that the quality of plastic they use will be the deciding factor. some plastics crumble up under prolonged UV exposure
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Rusty Shackelford

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2008, 12:32:17 PM »
Quote
At one point - a year or two ago.  EPA funded a study powering UPS trucks in NYC using hydraulic pressure.  They would use a gas engine to compress the system, and then let the release power the vehicle.   I haven't seen any thing about since the initial announcement.

I think you must mean compressed air not water since water is not compressible ( to any appreciable degree )

And yes, I have heard of compressed air being used to power vehicles successfully. The only problem is making a strong enough storage tank and the size of it.



I couldn't find the article, but here's the patent:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6941688/claims.html

It uses hydraulic fluid.
A calibrated X-Y axis controller for a non-reciprocating piston engine.

opsec

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2008, 12:33:45 PM »
Thanks. I'm not up on solar technology. You do realize, don't you, that you have become the forum's defacto go-to guy for solar power questions?
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offdalip

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Re: Feasibility
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2008, 01:47:20 PM »
Quote
a hydraulic pump which is driven by an engine

I think the energy source is not hydraulic just the control mechanisms. hydraulic fluid would actually need to be compressed , alot, volumewise. I don't think there is anything on earth that can take that much pressure. maybe in a neutron star you can compress that much.

what I mean by that is that on earth it is nearly impossible to store energy by compressed hydraulic fliud, HOWEVER it is very easy to transmit energy by compressing hydraulic fluid, i.e brake lines transmit energy much magnified thru hydraulics but is not stored energy.

funny, hydraulic fluid is non-compressible , thats why they use it, thats why it transmits energy thru a conduit soo well.


Quote
You do realize, don't you, that you have become the forum's defacto go-to guy for solar power questions?


well , I can only modestly say that I have set up my own working solar system and by trial and error have figured out the many possible pitfalls, of which there are many.

remember if there is no functional grid then you cannot do a tie-in system but must be totally off-grid

« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 02:09:08 PM by offdalip »
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"Events can move from the impossible to the inevitable without ever stopping at the probable"

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse...."

 

anything