fermentation pickles

[darwinslair]

Easiest thing in the world to make fermented vegetables.  Basic is pickles.  real basic instructions involve a food grade bucket that is 3-5 gallons.  A lid for it.  a ceramic plate just undersized to the inside diameter.  A 5-8 # piece of boiled non-porous rock, salt, garlic, dill, grape leaves and a bunch of pickles and other veggies you want to put in.  Place your grape leaves (fresh) garlic and dill on the bottom of the bucket.  Pack in your cucumbers and vegetables (radish, green tomatoes, onions, peppers, etc) and when 2/3 full place the ceramic plate on top of it all, place the rock on top of the plate (holds it down so they dont float up) and then you fill it with salt water (pickling salt or sea salt, 6 Tbsp to the half gallon) until it is covered over the top of the plate.  Put the lid on the bucket, place the bucket in a garbage bag, place the whole thing in a cool spot (basement corner, root cellar, whatever) and wait a month or two.  Take the bucket out and skim off any mold, try a pickle.

If you want them to stop fermenting just pack them in a jar in the fridge and pour filtered brine over them, or even pack them in jars from vinnegar pickles if you want. (changes the taste, but something for you to try) The fridge slows the fermentation down to a crawl and they keep until, well, until they are gone.  Have never had them go bad.  Not sure they can since they already are fermented.  They just get more sour the longer they go.

[Lady Lilya]

I've never heard of it with the garbage bag over it.  Doesn't it need to pick up lactobacillus from the air?  I've always heard to put a paper grocery bag over it.

Also, if you do it with cabbage you can just chop the cabbage and salt it.  By the next day, the salt will have drawn out enough water from the cabbage to not need to add water.  And the salt keeps it free of unwanted bacteria until the level comes up above the plate.

[Atash Hagmahani]

The bacteria seem to come from the crop itself. The air doesn't seem to supply much that is useful--more like mold spores!

Raspberry leaves, oak leaves, or current leaves are often used to inoculate the batch. Another trick is to use some juice from the last batch--the bacteria tend to die off but they probably leave behind enough survivors or spores to inoculate the next batch.

I've had no trouble getting the right bacteria; it's packing the jars correctly and using the right vegetables I had some trouble with. The instructions I got from two different books are incomplete and wildly inaccurate. One of them was compiled from a French collective--which is an odd source for that kind of information (France is neither too hot nor too cold to require highly specialized preservation methods--they prefer fresh foods)--and the other one was compiled and translated from some old German sources but the editors were not careful to make sure that the instructions were complete. Instead they had too much commentary about how healthy they are.

I'm going to go with my instincts on the next batch. I don't have much in the way of suitable vegetables today, so I might go out and buy some in bulk while I'm getting some other items I need.

I think you need to pack the jars so that it is mostly vegetable (or in some cases fruit) with just a little brine, mostly at the top. Tom uses buckets. I also think that certain vegetable are much easier to use than others, and if you're going to do cucumbers they need to be young and firm. Cabbage is really easy.

I think the pickles should be garlicy, peppery, and spicey, to compliment the fermented smell. If not garlicy then some onions. Definitely some sort of Allium.

As a matter of aesthetics, I am opposed to allowing any cam yeast to grow. I am tempted to spring for one of those German crocks that has the water seal to asphyxiate the cam yeast (the lactobacillis can go anaerobic--hence "fermentation").

I think we need PICTURES. How about a prize for pix of the most beautiful pickles along with detailed instructions for how to make them? How about a $25 gift certificate for Amazon.com? I think that would help encourage participation. We'll need some rules, though, to eliminate anything too hard to reproduce.

[darwinslair]

As I understand, the reason for the grape leaves is that the tannins help to keep the pickles firm and stop them from getting mushy.  Could be wrong.

I am also going to simply be adding more to the buckets until they are full.  I have seen no reason for pickles (unlike kraut) to just be added to along the way so long as the brine stays above them.

For kraut, as I add layers of cabbage, dill, cucumbers (kraut pickles are incredible) and salt I punch it down and by the time there is 3.5 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket there is more than enough liquid that has come out of the cabbage to cover the whole thing once the pressure of the plate and a rock is on top.  We use it as a condiment, but my favorite is over piggy parts in the slow cooker for the day.  I take the kraut pickles and just pack them in dill pickle jars for a few days to add the vinegar taste to the sour they already have and we eat them that way (and right out of the bucket too)

[Atash Hagmahani]

188 hits to this topic and still no updates?

Hey, anyone have pix to share?

BTW, some folks call these "brine pickles", just to be clear what we are talking about. It's a big deal, because it is one of the cheapest ways to preserve food over the winter. It takes a lot of salt but not much else other than the food itself.

[Cheffie]

easy-peasy way to pickle. I learned from a great book I found on Amazon called "the Joy of Pickling" by Linda Ziedrich. It is super straight forward, very easy to understand. The first part of the book is the most important because it deals with sanitation and ratios for fermentation. There are charts to figure out brine strength by the gallon or by the quart, in either salt volume, salt weight in ounces or brine concentration by percentage salt by weight of solution.

One thing I have to mention right off, I don't remember if it is was mentioned in the book, don't use regular salad cucumbers. The skin is too thick and won't allow the solution to permeate. Kirby cucumbers are the best. Growing your own is the best which I suggest because pickling cucumbers to purchase are extremely expensive and hard to find as I have found out.

I did several experiments with the ratios in the book this past summer and by far the tastiest is:

The Full Sour, by volume weight

Brine strength by the gallon:
- 1 cup pickling salt (no additives which may cloud the brine) added to 1 gallon of water at 68F.  Stir till dissolved.

- make sure your cukes are clean from the garden, be sure to cut off 1/8in of the blossom ends, if left on, it encourages spoilage. Pickling cukes have spines, don't worry too much about them, when you wash them they rub off. Try to pickle cukes right after picking, refrigerate if you must hold for more than 24 hours.

Oh, just go ahead and add tons of garlic, I like a mix of whole crushed garlic cloves and minced. The reason why people say to add grape leaves is because it a has a property that enhances crispiness, haven't tried it yet. I HATE dill, but go ahead and add it if you like.


Your container and all other equipment must be sterilized. Glass jars or 5 gallon food buckets work great. You will need an a place that doesn't get too hot or cold to ferment these. More than 80F is bad, big bad microorganisms can make the pickles soft.

OK, so you need to weight them down fully submerged or else they turn to shite.  One pickle can spoil the whole bunch. You can use plates and weights, but this book offered a great idea: make extra brine and put it in ziplock bags and use that to keep those darn pickles down. Bonus on using ziplocks- practically no scum will form. (which you must skim if it does, but a little left behind won't hurt). Ziplocks are great because if it leaks, hey it's brine; and you can use several filled bags of different sizes to completely cover the surface.

With a roughly 6% brine, within 2 weeks, they were really good ( you can just slice a piece off to taste) and in 4 weeks, they were the BEST pickles I have ever tasted, even better than the NYC Jewish pickles from my childhood. Go figure, a nice Irish Catholic girl obsessed with fermented pickles.

Feel free to PM with any questions.


edited to say: I would have posted pics, but I ate them too fast. I have mise en place brining pics somewhere I think.
You have to try this, it is amazing. Also kimchee is so easy and yum to make, I will post that method soon.

[opsec]

So how long does a pickle last without being refrigerated?

[Lady Lilya]

If it is under the liquid, it should be a long long long time.  The salt and the lacobacillus should keep out anything else.  But the idea is to preserve the cucumbers just between seasons.  You grow new ones next year.

[Dame]

When large volumes of produce are ready at the same time, a pickle crock in the kitchen is very helpful.  At the end of the day take the washed and ready to can or otherwise process vegies and dump them into the crock.  When full put away for a couple of weeks and eat these first.  They keep in a cool place for a number of months, but not as long as the more carefully processed ones.  The bits and pieces do need to be submerged and stored in a cool, dark corner somewhere.  Any refrigerator pickle recipie should work.  It lets us get enough sleep during harvest.

[Cheffie]

So how long does a pickle last without being refrigerated?

Good question. I will try a batch with next year's crop to see how long and if and when they spoil or just turn to mush. I wonder if the fermentation process stops at some point, which you would think would lead to eventual spoilage or it keeps going and just disintegrates them. Refrigeration slows but does not completely stop the process. I had one batch get slimy in the fridge after about three months and I threw them out, I think it the process did keep going and broke them down, they turned almost translucent.

Has anyone who has tried fermenting had garlic turn bright blue? I didn't eat it of course, but was wondering if it was dangerous and what causes it. (sigh...several more years till my husband gets his degree in food science, he is still working on pre req's).

I have to get recertified in ServSafe soon,it is required every 2 years by my company. I will definitely have a list of such questions to ask during the classroom portion of it. Feel free to add to the list.

[opsec]

The only thing I know of that is blue is mold.

[Cheffie]

The only thing I know of that is blue is mold.

That's what I thought, but this sh*t was florescent blue.

[Lady Lilya]

So how long does a pickle last without being refrigerated?

Good question. I will try a batch with next year's crop to see how long and if and when they spoil or just turn to mush. I wonder if the fermentation process stops at some point, which you would think would lead to eventual spoilage or it keeps going and just disintegrates them. Refrigeration slows but does not completely stop the process. I had one batch get slimy in the fridge after about three months and I threw them out, I think it the process did keep going and broke them down, they turned almost translucent.

Has anyone who has tried fermenting had garlic turn bright blue? I didn't eat it of course, but was wondering if it was dangerous and what causes it. (sigh...several more years till my husband gets his degree in food science, he is still working on pre req's).

I have to get recertified in ServSafe soon,it is required every 2 years by my company. I will definitely have a list of such questions to ask during the classroom portion of it. Feel free to add to the list.

I believe the theory is that the population of lactobacillus reaches equilibrium at some point.  Even when it isn't any longer doing much action, the concentration of it should still keep most other buggies out. 

Garlic gets blue in a marinade overnight.  It is just oxidation. 

[Cheffie]

So how long does a pickle last without being refrigerated?

Good question. I will try a batch with next year's crop to see how long and if and when they spoil or just turn to mush. I wonder if the fermentation process stops at some point, which you would think would lead to eventual spoilage or it keeps going and just disintegrates them. Refrigeration slows but does not completely stop the process. I had one batch get slimy in the fridge after about three months and I threw them out, I think it the process did keep going and broke them down, they turned almost translucent.

Has anyone who has tried fermenting had garlic turn bright blue? I didn't eat it of course, but was wondering if it was dangerous and what causes it. (sigh...several more years till my husband gets his degree in food science, he is still working on pre req's).

I have to get recertified in ServSafe soon,it is required every 2 years by my company. I will definitely have a list of such questions to ask during the classroom portion of it. Feel free to add to the list.

I believe the theory is that the population of lactobacillus reaches equilibrium at some point.  Even when it isn't any longer doing much action, the concentration of it should still keep most other buggies out. 

Garlic gets blue in a marinade overnight.  It is just oxidation. 

That's interesting. In all my years of preparing food professionally, I have never seen blue garlic except when pickling.

[Cheffie]

Here's one explanation (that make the most sense):
Garlic contains sulfur compounds which can react with copper to form copper sulfate, a blue or blue-green compound. The amount of copper needed for this reaction is very small and is frequently found in normal water supplies.

Garlic Can Turn Blue
Raw garlic contains an enzyme that if not inactivated by heating reacts with sulfur (in the garlic) and copper (from water or utensils) to form blue copper sulfate. The garlic is still safe to eat.

More:
  By using a model reaction system representing blue-green discoloration that occurs when purees of onion (Allium cepa L.) and garlic (Allium sativum L.) are mixed, we isolated two pigment precursors (PPs) and a reddish-purple pigment (PUR-1) and determined their chemical structures. PPs were isolated from a heat-treated solution containing color developer (CD) and either L-valine or L-alanine, and their structures were determined as 2-(3,4-dimethylpyrrolyl)-3-methylbutanoic acid (PP-Val), and 2-(3,4-dimethyl-1H-pyrrolyl) propanoic acid (PP-Ala), respectively. Next, PUR-1 was isolated from a heat-treated solution containing PP-Val and allicin, and its structure was determined as (1E)-1-(1-((1S)-1-carboxy-2-methylpropyl)-3,4-dimethyl-1H-pyrrol-2-yl)-prop-1-enylene-3-(1-((1S)-1-carboxy-2-methylpropyl)-3,4-dimethyl-1H-pyrrol-2-ylidenium). The structure of PUR-1 suggested that PP molecules containing a 3,4-dimethyl pyrrole ring had been cross-linked by an allyl group of allicin to form conjugated pigments. While PUR-1 is a dipyrrole compound exhibiting a reddish-purple color, a color shift toward blue to green can be expected as the cross-linking reaction continues to form, for example, tri- or tetrapyrrole compounds.

What the above means:

The discoloration is due to pigments that form between sulfur compounds in garlic and amino acids. When the garlic tissue is disrupted, as happens in processing, an enzyme is liberated and reacts with it to form thiosulfinates compounds that then react with the natural amino acids in the garlic to form blue pigments. The age of garlic determines how much isoalliin there is in the first place, and the nature of the processing determines how much enzyme is liberated.

That makes sense that it is from copper in water. After all, how often do you see a recipe that has garlic in water? Pickling! Wow, I thought I used filtered water, maybe the filter is bad. Guess I figured out my own puzzle!