Author Topic: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard  (Read 1326 times)

Atash Hagmahani

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Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« on: February 15, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »
Art of Handmade Bread: Contemporary European Recipes for the Home Baker

This is the Americanized version of a book that sells in Europe under a slightly different name. Americanized means that they use imperial units and measure flour by volume rather than weight. They probably also switched references to flour, as European flours are not quite the same. They have types we don't, and we have types they don't.

Apparently there were some mistakes in the unit conversion. The author has corrections on his website.

Unfortunately, the recipes are a bit too prosey for me. I like very specific, step-by-step, highly organized instructions. BUT, he does include two tips that make bread-making a lot easier:

he slightly oils his work surface. No big deal, because you can get bread dough off most types of countertops fairly easily.

The big deal is that he kneads for 5-10 seconds, lets it sit for 10 minutes, kneads for 5-10 seconds, lets it sit for 10 minutes, and then kneads it 5-10 seconds. That's right, about 30 seconds total, max, kneading (actually, I gave it a good 15 seconds each time when I tried it out). Although it takes more time, imagine how much easier this is. An elderly woman can easily do this without getting sore. It is really easy.

It is not surprising to me that this works, because I know that if you simply let the dough sit for 10 minutes after kneading it, it kneads in 5 minutes instead of the usual 10. The reason is because that gives the dough enough time for the gluten molecules (actually gliadin and glutenin) to hydrate and start unwinding on their own. Then they start joining end-to-end to make longer, and longer, and longer strands, which is what gives bread its characteristic spongy, springy network.

That's how "no knead" bread recipes work; they contain lots of water, and you just let the dough sit a long time.

I think learning smarter ways of kneading is one of the most important facets of making bread. Americans and Brits were taught to push the dough and to keep adding more and more flour. That will result in a fairly ugly dough the crumb of whose finished loaf isn't quite right. I don't think it will work at all for many kinds of bread, and is probably one of the major reasons that most older American recipes for fancier types of bread don't work at all. It works better if you add all the flour and water at once (yes, it's sticky, but once the gluten forms, it's quite workable), and also works better if you PULL the dough instead of pushing it.

Another mistake is to start kneading immediately, instead of letting the dough sit for a while--what the French call "autolyse" although technically that is a misnomer. Nothing is autolysing. It's just the gluten strands unwinding.

Other problems happen adding fats to fatty breads. Traditionally you work, say, butter or olive oil into a dough AFTER it has risen once, and kinda layer it instead of mixing it in completely. American recipes often add it in the beginning, the problem being that the fat gets in the way of the yeast getting to their sugar, so that it takes much longer to rise.  Something similar happens with sweet breads. Yeasties like sugar, but not too much. I always think that sweet breads work better if the dough has almost no sugar in it, but instead the sugar is worked either into a swirl, or on the outside. Especially if you're going to glaze the outsize with sugar or syrup anyway--like sweet rolls--in which case sugar in the dough and outside the dough is just too sweet for me.

The breads described in the book are mostly (not entirely--there are a few French and Italian breads) from northern and eastern Europe--Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, Sweden, Russia, and the Ukraine. They are mostly complex, rustic breads of great character.

There are instructions I've never seen in other books, such as for harvesting your own yeast off of raisins (you know that sort of waxy coating on certain fruits? It's full of wild yeasts), and making your own barley malt (sprout barley, dry it, and grind it up). In Europe they can buy flour that already contains malt, but we generally can't in the USA.

Bear in mind that wild yeasts are not as vigorous as cultivated types. Beads made with wild yeast will take a while to rise. But it is worth knowing how to do it, when store-bought yeast is no longer available.

BTW, by "wild yeast", I mean literally wild yeast, NOT sourdough (some people refer to sourdough as "wild yeast"), although he does have sourdough recipes. Sourdough includes some Lactobacillis along with the yeast, and traditionally, it was actually used with soda, the soda reacting with the acid to produce carbon dioxide. A bit more like a quickbread.

Oh, he's also got instructions for creating the elastic crumb and thin shiny crust that most folks associate with rye bread, which never magically shows up on home-made. You add nearly boiling water to rye flour, which "gelatinizes" the starch, and mix some into the dough, and glaze some on the outside.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 11:48:18 PM by Atash Hagmahani »
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Beeherder

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 03:22:28 PM »
 :gen013:

Ok, this topic is being hit on in several other threads so i thought to bring it back to the topic heading of bread. I cheat with the kneading, ... i use a bread machine. Yeah its not cool as doing it by hand but even without electricity i might use that container because it does hold the rising dough and its self generated heat well. I also have not developed the fully sourdough technique, but figure if i kneaded too do that without yeast method it would just be a matter of starting the night before instead of the morning of the baking.

eye use this book:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_22?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rustic+european+breads&sprefix=rustic+european+breads

my best crust comes from a technique i learned in that book. Preheat oven to 450 degrees. When loaf is ready to go into the oven i slice the top then put it in oven for 2 minutes, open and spray with water, rotate 90 degrees, 2 minutes, spray, rotate 90, repeat total 5 times, then reduce oven temp to 375 degrees and bake for 35 minutes. This yields a crispy crust that pleases me.

Dame

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 05:09:50 PM »
My bread gets kneeded in a far more random routine, between interuptions of random duration until it "feels right" and I seldom know whether it is the bread or me that feels right.  Kneedless to say consistency of outcomes is not high on the probability scale, however no one here wants to take over so does not comment unless asked.  And, the bread continues to be consummed at a rate of a couple of loaves per day or equivalent.  Major did not work well outcomes make quite good melba toast.

The overnight rise in the coldroom actually worked, will do it again.  Takes about 24 hours start to finish.  And gets rid of having to pay much attention.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 06:25:24 PM »
You're not the only one who does a cold rise, Dame. Some folks make dough in the evening, put it in their refrigerator, and let it rise all night.

Another way to do a long slow rise is to use a tiny amount of yeast--just a quarter teaspoon, for a 12 hour rise.
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Dame

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 09:09:59 PM »
Thanks Atash,  I cannot see managing a regular sort of raise on the bread while trying to garden and preserve food during the growing season.  We would end up eating very bad bread often.  The overnight version, seems way more accomodating of other tasks.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 10:25:16 PM »
Some people do it for reasons other than or in addition to convenience: they like the difference in taste and texture.

The overnight rise also works nicely for having  breakfast rolls.
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Dame

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 10:40:41 PM »
Yes the improved taste and texture is great.  I need to actually get the bread made first though or we have an hours drive to buy some.

My next step here is going to be pre-sprouting the bread grain and then dehydrating.  Does anyone have any experience with this.  How much grain needs to be sprouted per loaf? and how long does this take? and then how long to dry at what temp so it will grind?  This particular experiment will likely start sometime after Christmas and I am attempting to determine how much space, and what containers will be necessary to maintain a steady supply.

Lady Lilya

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 07:41:57 AM »
I have a book I haven't yet had a chance to read called Sprouted Grain Baking.

A lot of my friends have a Family Grain Mill because it will grind well while the grain is still wet. 

Make sure you don't store it long once it has been sprouted.  Once the phytic acid is neutralized, it doesn't have any defenses against rotting.  It is basically equivalent to any leafy veggie, in terms of shelf life. 
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Dame

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 05:20:48 PM »
I am betting I have something that will grind wet germinated wheat, way less of a fuss than having to dry it first.  The choises are the VitaMix and the hand grinder with the steel cutters in it.  Will try the VitaMix first.

Atash Hagmahani

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 06:17:52 PM »
The Vitamix will work beautifully. That's what I would do, grind sprouted grains fresh.
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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 06:18:34 PM »
reflection reminds that the overnight rise will also allow more time for the phytic acid to be neutralized by the yeast per the posting from Survivalblog making more of the nutrients in the grain available to you and yours.

from REB reference above, page 57

Quote
Bread Machine Poolish

The bread machine chanber is an ideal home for a French-style sponge. Simply make the poolish in the bread machine. Then, 10 hours or so later, add the ingredients to your favorite European bread and make the bread in the machine using the dough setting. Shape, raise, finish and bake the bread on a stone. Its the best of all possible worlds.

3/4 cup organic bread flour
1/2 teaspoon bread machine yeast (bh-or your favorite yeast)
1/2 cup room temperature spring water

Combine the flour, yeast, and water in the bread machine pan and process on the dough setting. Or, if you prefer, beat the mixture by hand, 100 strokes. Cover and set aside or simply leave it in the bread machine.

Within 2 hours it will rise and bubble, at least doubling in volume. the poolish will continue to work and will peak in about 10 hours, when it will "drop," and fall back to its original volume. For fuller flavor development place the poolish in the refrigerator and after 4 or 5 hours or overnight. Let it return to room temperature before using. Pour all the poolish into any bread recipe made on the dough setting to complicate and improve the taste and texture of the bread /quote]

Beeherder

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 06:30:54 PM »
also from REB page 60

Quote
ITALIAN WINTER BIGA FOR ROLLS AND WHEAT BREAD

... The longer you allow the biga or homemade starter, to stand, the more sour the flavor will become. Use these starters after allowing them to sit in the bread machine overnight, or leave them to ripen and sour for a few days to achieve a different taste.

1/4 teaspoon bread machine yeast (BH- your favorite yeast is fine)
1/4 cup plus 2 tablespoons spring water
1 1/4 cups plus 2 tablespoons organic bread flour

Add the yeast water and flour to the bread machine pan and process on the dough settin until the starter has mixed for 5 minutes, then turn off the machine. Let the biga sit in the bread machine or in a covered jar overnight, or for a minimum of 10 hours. Remove the starter to a 2 quart glass jar or plastic storage container. Cover it tightly and store it in the refrigerator for up to 2 weeks. Alternatively, store it in the warm kitchen for a few days stirring from time to time to further "sour" the taste. Feed this starter as you would any other. Add 1/2 cup each organic bread flour and spring water, knead thoroughly, cover, and set aside in the warm kitchen overnight or until it becomes bubbly and active again.

Lady Lilya

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 06:35:56 PM »
How does a Vitamix do with things that aren't REALLY wet?  Don't you need enough liquid to make it flow properly around the blades? 
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Dame

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Re: Northern European breads, plus a kneading tip from Dan Lepard
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 07:03:43 PM »
I will have to read the directions again, but the one I have, has two containers, one for dry ingredients and one for wet.  I have powdered herbs in the dry one and also dehydrated tomatoes when doing a large batch.  The blades in the two containers are at different angles.  We will see.  I should get that far by the first part of next week.

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Our Daily Bread
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 04:30:23 PM »
Have spent the past number of weeks getting some reliability out of daily sourdough bread.  Starting with Beehearders and Atash's kind comments I have settled into feeding and proofing the sourdough, then making the bread with home milled flour, thanks to DH and using the cold rise method which is much more flexible about my timing. 

Wet ground sprouted grain did not work.  Made a terrible mess of everything used to attempt to grind it.  Back up, rethink required.
Then many hours reading The Fresh Loaf, where there are others who trashed thier kitchens and needed to spend hours cleaning.  And then many hours reading sproutpeople.org who have some sprouted grain recipies other than breads.  Meat grinders are the recommended wet sprouted grain grinder.  We have one (attatched to a stainless steel bandsaw), so we are currently working towards making room for meat processing and sprouted grain grinding, in the coldroom.